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To: Bayard

“I think you should point to me Catholic doctrine which says this. Do you mean obedience to what?”


Obedience and communion with the Pope in Rome, that is, and submitting to the sacraments which are the “ordinary” means for receiving various types of grace from God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

All of this, thus, renders grace as the reward of obedience and good works, which is not the Reformed or Augustinian position. Which rather sees salvation as insured by grace, from the very beginning, unlike in Trent:

CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed”!

While my other brethren amongst the Protestants differ from the Calvinistic/Augustinian view in some regards, the end result, in either case, is that salvation is by grace alone without the working of the law. Nor is grace or salvation the reward for good works, as your religion teaches.

“The Old Testament already declares the meritoriousness of good works before God. “But the just shall live for evermore: and their reward is with the Lord” (Wisdom 5:16). “Be not afraid to be justified even to death: for the reward of God continueth for ever” (Ecclus., xviii, 22). Christ Himself adds a special reward to each of the Eight Beatitudes... It is worthy of note that, in these and many others good works are not represented as mere adjuncts of justifying faith, but as real fruits of justification and part causes of our eternal happiness. And the greater the merit, the greater will be the reward in heaven.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

You say that it is by “cooperating,” in other words, remaining in a state of grace, that one is saved, which our merits and cooperation play a part in our salvation.

Whereas Augustine and all Protestants say, that good works are the result of a living faith, and the results of a renewed and born again soul, who is already saved by that grace which is without works.

Whether Augustine was a Bishop or not is not the point. Notice that you do not actually engage what Augustine actually said, but merely assert it, making the fatal assumption that the Roman Catholic does not change.


101 posted on 08/31/2013 8:54:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; Religion Moderator
Notice that you do not actually engage what Augustine actually said, but merely assert it, making the fatal assumption that the Roman Catholic does not change.
And yet again, making it personal.
106 posted on 08/31/2013 9:24:53 PM PDT by narses
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