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To: Bayard

“Hence, that which invites our return to God— evidently belongs to our will; while the other, which promises His return to us, belongs to His grace. (Augustine, On grace and free will, V.)

He did not say freedom was something unreal. He read scripture too, which said, “God will repay each person according to what they have done.—Rom 2:6”


Neither Augustine nor Reformed doctrine actually does away with the will. It simply asserts that the unwilling are made willing by God’s grace effectually, that free-will is a voluntary slave to sin, and that it is by effectual grace that we are saved.

Hence Augustine says,

“But this part of the human race to which God has promised pardon and a share in His eternal kingdom, can they be restored through the merit of their own works? God forbid. For what good work can a lost man perform, except so far as he has been delivered from perdition? Can they do anything by the free determination of their own will? Again I say, God forbid. For it was by the evil use of his free-will that man destroyed both it and himself. For, as a man who kills himself must, of course, be alive when he kills himself, but after he has killed himself ceases to live, and cannot restore himself to life; so, when man by his own free-will sinned, then sin being victorious over him, the freedom of his will was lost. For of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. This is the judgment of the Apostle Peter. And as it is certainly true, what kind of liberty, I ask, can the bond-slave possess, except when it pleases him to sin? For he is freely in bondage who does with pleasure the will of his master. Accordingly, he who is the servant of sin is free to sin. And hence he will not be free to do right, until, being freed from sin, he shall begin to be the servant of righteousness. And this is true liberty, for he has pleasure in the righteous deed; and it is at the same time a holy bondage, for he is obedient to the will of God. But whence comes this liberty to do right to the man who is in bondage and sold under sin, except he be redeemed by Him who has said, If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed? And before this redemption is wrought in a man, when he is not yet free to do what is right, how can he talk of the freedom of his will and his good works, except he be inflated by that foolish pride of boasting which the apostle restrains when he says, By grace are you saved, through faith.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 30)

Catholic doctrine certainly does not speak of grace in terms of being effectual, working to effectually make a man humble and obedient, and not maintained by the humility and obedience of the man in cooperation of it.

Thus the Reformed/Augustinian view is utterly contrary to the Catholic position, which rather sees grace as something to be merited through obedience to the RCC.


75 posted on 08/31/2013 7:32:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Catholic doctrine certainly does not speak of grace in terms of being effectual, working to effectually make a man humble and obedient, and not maintained by the humility and obedience of the man in cooperation of it.

I submit to you this statement is in error.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just.(The Council of Trent, Ch 3)

I think the issue is language, not meaning.

Catholic teaching is not against Augustine. Augustine was a Bishop, and is a Saint and doctor of the Catholic Church.

80 posted on 08/31/2013 7:45:28 PM PDT by Bayard
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Great Augustine Quote.

The reformers were only trying to bring back the Ancient and Biblical Truth without the novelties.


121 posted on 09/01/2013 7:20:53 AM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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