Since I just finished my work for the night, I decided to take the time to respond to this even though it was not directed at me. MatthewRobertOlson wrote to Harley:
“Your first point is flawed. The verse says “because their works were evil” (”their” referring to the “people [that] loved the darkness”), not because all works are evil. Therefore, to say that the verse means that “our works are evil” is quite a big stretch. “
Now this isn’t even a response to anything Harley even said, and it’s also quite nonsensical. She didn’t say that all works are evil. She said that our works are evil, which is a big difference, and a position you have no choice but to accept due to the sheer number of scriptures that prove the matter. Her own verse cited the Lord calling us “evil,” and Christ in another place says, “no one is good, save one, that is, God” (Luk 18:19). Paul, in his epistle, says “no one good, no, not one” (Rom 3:12). Now, these things wouldn’t be said if there was some spark of goodness in a man, or an exception to the rule somewhere where there was a good person. Either only God is good, and every man a liar, or else God is a liar and every man not accountable to Him whether they are good or not.
Now, since we know that God is no liar, but that man tells lies like he breaths, it follows that if we do have good works, it is not our own, but God who works in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Php 2:13). We cannot say that there is a spark of goodness in us that caused us to differ, as you vainly say, since, before salvation, we are dead in sin, and “had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others” (Eph 2:3). This is not a partial corruption. This is not a fraction of a corruption. It is a corruption of both mind and body so that there is no goodness in man unless God, by the Holy Ghost, gives it to Him.
Now if we are dead in sin, how can we, who are dead, give any heed to the things of the living? And if you say that God merely helps us, but does not quicken the soul so that it can believe, making an unwilling man willing, where is this spark of goodness in man that is there to be helped? Can you identify it? Can you tell me where it is? If a man is dead, he is no better than a spiritual corpse, as Augustine wisely observed:
“For it was by the evil use of his free-will that man destroyed both it and himself. For, as a man who kills himself must, of course, be alive when he kills himself, but after he has killed himself ceases to live, and cannot restore himself to life; so, when man by his own free-will sinned, then sin being victorious over him, the freedom of his will was lost. “For of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.” This is the judgment of the Apostle Peter. And as it is certainly true, what kind of liberty, I ask, can the bond-slave possess, except when it pleases him to sin? For he is freely in bondage who does with pleasure the will of his master.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 30. “Men are Not Saved by Good Works, Nor by the Free Determination of Their Own Will, But by the Grace of God Through Faith”)
You wrote, in reply to her, “Doesn’t the ability to give good gifts indicate at least a small amount of inherent goodness?” Now why do you come to this kind of a conclusion, instead of wondering how there can be any goodness in man when God specifically ruled it out? If God says that “no one is good, no not one,” and that all of our righteousness “is as filthy rags,” it does not follow that there is anything good in us, even a little bit, as all of it, even the best of our deeds, is inherently ugly and disgusting in his sight. The logical reply then, is, that if there really is any good in us, it was given to us by God. Such is the case with the Pagan nations historically and to this very day, where God gives to man common grace for the maintenance of society and the benefit of mankind in general; however, if God withheld even this from us, there would be no doubt that our unrestrained souls would run rampant in all manner of sins, just as the antediluvians did which resulted in God’s destruction of them all.
Therefore, we must confess with Paul, and not with the Catholics, the following saying, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;” (2Co 3:5).
You continue:
“We are given graces, yes, but these graces do not simply give us salvation, but enable us to do good works and to have faith so that we can do our part of the process.”
Now this contradicts the scripture which says “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Rom 9:16). Your argument could only be true if the scripture said, “not of God who wills, or God who runs, but man who obeys,” or “Not of God who has mercy, but man who wills it,” since the mercy of God is not enough to effect salvation, but must wait for the man to work it out himself. But we say with all the Holy scriptures that faith is the gift of God, and that all those who receive it from the Father to believe, do come to the Son, without any of them being lost, as would be the case if left to our own willing and running (John 6:37, 39, 64-65). Or as Augustine puts it:
“if it is said, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” because it is of both, that is, both of the will of man and of the mercy of God, so that we are to understand the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” as if it meant the will of man alone is not sufficient, if the mercy of God go not with it—then it will follow that the mercy of God alone is not sufficient, if the will of man go not with it; and therefore, if we may rightly say, it is not of man that wills, but of God that shows mercy, because the will of man by itself is not enough, why may we not also rightly put it in the converse way: “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” because the mercy of God by itself does not suffice? Surely, if no Christian will dare to say this, “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” lest he should openly contradict the apostle, it follows that the true interpretation of the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” is that the whole work belongs to God, who both makes the will of man righteous, and thus prepares it for assistance, and assists it when it is prepared.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 32)
My points are not "flawed". You neglected John 3:19 which states, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. There is not much to discuss. It is rather clear. We love the darkness. We don't love the light. And the reason is because our works are evil. We love to be disobedient.
Question: How are we able to "give good gifts" if we are totally evil? Doesn't the ability to give good gifts indicate at least a small amount of inherent goodness?
I did not say we are "totally" evil. I said we are evil.
God must change our hearts.
This was a gentle rhetorical question to enlighten us to our true condition. This is one of the reason He came and died for us:
As Paul states, "Oh wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from this dead?"
This corruption in us is the reason we cannot do anything pleasing to God. First, God must give us a new heart and spirit to walk in His ways. (Eze 36:26) Then God must lead us in His path for righteousness sake. (Psalms 23:3)
But what you have raised is a very interesting topic. To think that man is intrinsically good is new thinking developed in the Renaissance. It is not what scriptures teaches us and, if we were honest with ourselves, it is what we really know about ourselves. Deep down inside us we know we have all those characteristics that are vile wanting to surface. God doesn't suppress them. God eradicates them. But this can only happen once He makes us new creatures and calls us to walk in His statues and obey His ordinances.
It is totally to His praise and His glory that we are who we are. We cannot do good things for the Father. It is only through God the Son and God the Spirit that we bear fruit.