Posted on 10/01/2013 12:44:31 PM PDT by Gamecock
“But do you see Peter as the head of the Apostles? Indeed, Christ founded the Church on Peter and the Apostles, the first Bishops.”
No, not at all. No, I do not believe “Christ founded the Church on Peter”.
I do understand it is claimed repeatedly by Romans.
A Calvinist trips, falls, and breaks his leg.
“Whew,” say he, “I am glad to get that done with!”
“Please don’t waste your time citing 500 vague examples of how Calvin isn’t actually saying what he is clearly saying: some animals are more equal than others. No thanks. You can keep it.”
Why would we want to hide it?
“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
(Joh 6:64-65)
That’s just something you’re going to have to wrestle with.
“Calvinism is nothing more than a cult.”
Well gee, thanks for dumping on ALL the Reformers, from Luther, Calvin, Knox, to the Huguenots who died in the tens of thousands for the faith, to the Scottish Covenators, the English Puritans, to the origins of this country itself. All damned Cultists you say!
I think the real Cultists are the ones who dump on Christians just because they want to save the golden calf in their lives that whispers to them that they saved themselves by their own personal choosing. Add works and they’re no better than Papists. But we’ll stick with the scripture which says:
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
(Joh 15:16)
“A Calvinist trips, falls, and breaks his leg.
“Whew,” say he, “I am glad to get that done with!””
Indeed!
“Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”
(Mat 10:29-30)
“Why would anyone follow John Calvin when they have the Bible?”
So now you’re a Sola Scriptura guy? Cool!
And Calvin's authority for this is what, exactly?
Was he claiming some authority in that statement?
Are you guys trying to CONVERT us?
Atheist Reporter: It’s a joke, I tell him. My friends think it is you want to convert me.
Pope Francis: “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good.”
Atheist Reporter: Your Holiness, is there is a single vision of the Good? And who decides what it is?
Pope Francis: “Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.”
Atheist Reporter: Your Holiness, you wrote that in your letter to me. The conscience is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think that’s one of the most courageous steps taken by a Pope.
Pope Francis: “And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
You naughty Catholics! Don’t you know it’s a SIN to proselytize? 50 Hail Marys on the double! (I’m not your Priest, but I FEEL I am.. so...)
Exactly, that’s why no one does.
Really ignorant remarks. Calvin and the other 16th Century reformers are WHY WE HAVE THE BIBLE!!! Bible reading and study by the common man was first allowed and taught by Calvin, Luther and the other reformers.
Calvin is also arguably the father of the historical-grammatical method of biblical interpretation, which all (conservative, bible-believing) bible scholars today take for granted, as the primary way of understanding a biblical text in context. Medieval scholastic biblical interpretation before Calvin was a mess, to say the least.
The great majority of Protestants today have some elements of Calvinism as part and parcel with what their churches believe, and how they are governed.
Even something as basic as representative democracy...or a democratic republic (a Free Republic) is a variation on rule by elders (representatives) which was pioneered and developed by Calvin. Before him it was church rule strictly by dictate of priests, bishops and popes.
Even assumptions such as rule of law (same law for everyone...not a divine right of kings)and, title-deeds for property ownership, and free-market capitalism...all in some measure are due to Calvin and Calvinism.
GPH: 'thanks for dumping on ALL the Reformers, '
How exactly did SA dump on All the Reformatters?
You can talk about him blanket naming Calvinism, but not others -- the only lumping of Luther, Calvin, John Smith, Knox, Ellen G White, Charles Taze Russell etc. is in your post, GPH
Nice things didn't happen in the religious wars of the 1600s -- both sides were to blame (well actually it became multi-sided after the first few pieces) and nationalism, politics all came to play their roles
The Hugues in particular fired the first shotS and then lost and were killed. If they had won (as their brethren in England did), then Catholics would have been killed. Bloody, not nice, but the facts.
Sorry this was pioneered and developed by the Graeco-Roman world, 2000 years before Jean.
The very terms we use (Senate etc.) derives from the Roman Republic.
Also, you are wrong with Even assumptions such as rule of law (same law for everyone...not a divine right of kings)and, title-deeds for property ownership, and free-market capitalism...all in some measure are due to -- this is again dating from the Classical world or from Saxon common law systems
No it’s not. Knowing and predestining are two completely different animals. I know my son will play computer games today. I’m not predestining it and turning him into my robot, I just know my kid.
Bate and switch.
“How exactly did SA dump on All the Reformatters?”
Catholics aren’t known for their critical thinking skills, what with the whole herd mentality thing they have going on, but for ShadowAce I’ll provide the following data with which to compute in his noggin on why he dumps on the Reformation and all the Reformers when he calls “Calvinism” (or, rather, the doctrines of Calvin) a cult. As far as I remember, Shadowace isn’t Catholic, so at the very least he should be able to comprehend the point of this:
“All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.” (Martin Luther, Quoted in Boettner, Reformed Doctrine, p.15)
“If, then, we are taught and believe that we ought to be ignorant of the necessary foreknowledge of God and the necessity of events, Christian faith is utterly destroyed, and the promises of God and the whole gospel fall to the ground completely; for the Christian’s chief and only comfort in every adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered, or impeded.” (Martin Luther, On the Bondage of the Will)
“God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone.” (Martin Luther, Ibid)
“Here, God Incarnate says: ‘I would, and thou wouldst not.’ God Incarnate, I repeat, was sent for this purpose, to will, say, do, suffer, and offer to all men, all that is necessary for salvation; albeit He offends many who, being abandoned or hardened by God’s secret will of Majesty, do not receive Him thus willing, speaking, doing and offering. . . .It belongs to the same God Incarnate to weep, lament, and groan over the perdition of the ungodly, though that will of Majesty purposely leaves and reprobates some to perish. Nor is it for us to ask why He does so, but to stand in awe of God, Who can do, and wills to do such things.”(Ibid)
“On your view [Erasmus], God will elect nobody, and no place for election will be left; all that is left is freedom of will to heed or defy the long-suffering and wrath of God. But if God is thus robbed of His power and wisdom in election, what will He be but just that idol, Chance, under whose sway all things happen at random? Eventually, we shall come to this: that men may be saved and damned without God’s knowledge! For He will not have marked out by sure election those that should be saved and those that should be damned; He will merely have set before all men His general long-suffering, which forbears and hardens, together with His chastening and punishing mercy, and left it to them to choose whether they would be saved or damned, while He Himself, perchance, goes off, as Homer says, to an Ethiopian banquet!” (Ibid)
“You may be worried that it is hard to defend the mercy and equity of God in damning the undeserving, that is, ungodly persons, who, being born in ungodliness, can by no means avoid being ungodly, and staying so, and being damned, but are compelled by natural necessity to sin and perish; as Paul says: ‘We were all the children of wrath, even as others’ (Eph.2.3), created such by God Himself from a seed that had been corrupted by the sin of the one man, Adam. But here God must be reverenced and held in awe, as being most merciful to those whom He justifies and saves in their own utter unworthiness; and we must show some measure of deference to His Divine wisdom by believing Him just when to us He seems unjust.” (Ibid)
Just FYI, there are NOT quotes of Calvin.
“No it’s not. Knowing and predestining are two completely different animals. “
Actually try reading the text. This isn’t an example of God merely foreknowing what would happen at random. It is an example of God foreknowing what He Himself would do!
‘There are some of you that believe not,” saith Christ, “Therefore I said unto you,” for that reason, as an explanation for your unbelief, I said unto you: “no man can come unto me, unless it is given unto him by my Father.”
Now what sense is there to say, as an explanation for their faithlessness, that “no man can come unto me, unless it is given unto him by the Father,” if the truth is that actually isn’t even true?
on the contrary, you did the dumping and also irrational, emotional and plain wrong statement leading.
So you ought to apologize to SA for a false accusation
Ouch!
Calvinism is the most absurd example of pathological heresy. It not only denies the existence of free will but it worships a merciless and brutal God. It actually believes that God would create human beings who would suffer for eternity as their predestined fate. There really is no role for grace and personal redemption.
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