[HarleyD]

I'm sorry that I have not yet got back to you on your comment. If we were to take the specific dogma of the Catholic Church which can be found here, please review the following:

VI. The Catholic Church
1.The Catholic Church was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ.
2.Christ founded the Catholic Church in order to continue His work of redemption for all time.
3.Christ gave His Church a hierarchical constitution.
4.The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the Bishops.
5.Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the whole Catholic Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.
6.According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time.
7.The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the Bishops of Rome.
8.The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Catholic Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.
9.The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.
10.By virtue of Divine right, the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses.
11.Christ founded the Catholic Church.
12.Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church.
13.In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals, the Catholic Church is infallible.
14.The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals.
15.The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to he held by all the faithful.
16.The Church founded by Christ is unique and one.
17.The Church founded by Christ is holy.
18.The Church founded by Christ is catholic.
19.The Church founded by Christ is apostolic.
20.Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

Please note these are the very hard core dogmas of the Catholic Church. Number 20 is very clear that it states one must belong to the Church in order to be saved. Yet I believe that Vatican II states that you do not have to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. And, as we know, this pope has stated as much. The Church has skirted around this dogma by saying that if one is invincibly ignorant then they can be saved. But the Church's dogma is fairly clear.

This dogma has been changed.

[cothrige]

Number 20 is very clear that it states one must belong to the Church in order to be saved. Yet I believe that Vatican II states that you do not have to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. And, as we know, this pope has stated as much. The Church has skirted around this dogma by saying that if one is invincibly ignorant then they can be saved. But the Church's dogma is fairly clear.

This dogma has been changed.

I think you have chosen a good example, and if you don't mind I am going to bother to go to a little length to respond. If this goes on longer than you think it should I apologise, but I think it deserves a real response, especially as I have at times found myself troubled by this very issue and therefore spent some time considering it carefully.

There is no doubt that many people think that Vatican II changed nulla salus extra ecclesiam (hereafter NSEE) but I think, ultimately, not. Let me give you some background on why I feel that way. We know that no dogma of the faith can limit God, and the Church has always believed that God can save whom He wills and that while he uses the sacraments he is not bound by them. If He desires to save a man he will regardless of whether he is Catholic. Therefore, the dogma is obviously not absolute but rather a general statement. Let us further consider baptism of desire which is undoubtedly a possibility for salvation that excludes outward membership in the Church, and this was referred to by St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent, among others. In other words, it is also a firm teaching of the faith. In this concept we see the beginnings of how we should interpret the aforementioned dogma. Though not outwardly Catholic a person responding to God's grace and seeking membership in the Church can, if in some way prevented from achieving that, still hope for salvation. And, when you think about it, surely it makes sense. If a person is driving to Church to be baptised, for instance, and is killed on the way is his soul definitely lost? The Church has long said not necessarily, and this bears directly on understanding the intents and limits of NSEE.

You mention invincible ignorance, and that is much like that above, and really demonstrates true Catholic development of doctrine. Let us look at the words of Lumen Gentium from the Council:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

The two most important elements here are "do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church" and "moved by grace." First, the Church here is considering a person who truly does not know about the Gospel or the Church, which is a very select group. These are not simply Muslims who hate the Church for some reason, but people who have never heard of it. Their ignorance is not their fault, and it is total. Secondly, these people being considered "sincerely seek God" which is an important idea and are "moved by grace." God is working in them and, as we have said, He is not limited by the sacraments or even dogmas. Consider that He can see into the heart and he knows that this person would, if they heard the Gospel, respond and be baptised.

We know the Church has long taught and believed in baptism of desire and blood, and through these we can see how God is measuring the heart and intent which would apply even for those truly ignorant of the faith and the necessity of the Church, and yet NSEE has been attested to as far back as St. Cyprian in the third century. Therefore we must interpret both so that the other remains intact, and that means that what Vatican II eventually asserts with the words "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved" is basically a sound interpretation of NSEE. It is phrased slightly differently with a focus from a different direction but it is still intact. Membership in the Church, if you know what she is, is necessary for salvation.