Posted on 11/14/2013 11:02:29 AM PST by fishtank
Published on Oct 30, 2013 http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-s... ... Strange Fire, part of Grace to You's Truth Matters conference series, evaluates the doctrines, claims, and practices of the modern charismatic movement, and affirms the true Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
The conference features pastor and Bible teacher John MacArthur, as well as teaching or presentations by:
R.C. Sproul Steve Lawson Conrad Mbewe Tom Pennington Phil Johnson Nathan Busenitz Justin Peters Todd Friel Joni Eareckson Tada
Peter wasn't just making an off-hand remark about Paul's writings. He specifically spoke of Paul's writings as being hard to be understood. Because Paul's writings had to do with the MYSTERY, kept secret in God since the world began, until revealed to Paul from direct revelations from the risen Christ. THAT was the "wisdom given unto him". And it was different that the wisdom given to Peter and the 11. Otherwise, Peter would have had no problem with Paul's revelations. See Galatians, Chapter 2. It was no small tidbit of advice that Peter wrote about concerning Paul's scriptures.
Yes, I too have seen this and found it interestingly similar to the Haitians who often 'require' one be a Catholic BEFORE they can advance to becoming a Voo-Doo Priest.
Not surprisingly they never get further than the next round of spiritual experiences their Priests and Priestesses afford them, and all the drama which goes with it....which in my opinion is at the least hyper emotionalism and at worst demonic in nature....often both.
That’s another danger with this emphasis on spiritual gifts, as it places experience over sound doctrine, and by so doing damns many.
The charge of placing experience over sound doctrine only has merit if experience is made the supreme judge rather than Scripture, but sound doctrine is not sound if it disallows experience which Scripture provides for and promises.
Without miracles, we simply wound not and do not have Christian faith, and it was Scriptural supernatural attestation that convinced multitudes who did not know Scripture, to whom appeal was made to natural revelation, while Scripture with miracles was used for Jews and proselytes. (Acts 8:5-8; 14:8-14; 17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19
And it was miracles that attested to the fact that God had given grace to the Gentiles, and thus the ruling of Acts 15.
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. (Acts 15:12)
What I've observed working with those involved with false religions and cults is it is very difficult for them to let loose of what they've “experienced”.....from astro- projection, though in third world countries is described otherwise yet much similar, to so called “enlightenment’ experiences...to those claiming to be “slain in the spirit” within the Charismatic movements.....all these attest to the individuals mind that they are “right” with God.... when in fact more times then not it's a distraction from the true commitment and understanding they need to have in order to be saved.
“But as said, this type of tongue was never mentioned again, but a prayer tongue was, and which thus required the gift of interpretation.”
I think there is an assumption here that a foreign language would not need the ‘gift of interpretation’ in order to make sense of it. If someone is speaking Japanese in the back pew, I wouldn’t understand a word they said until someone with the gift of interpretation could explain it to me.
It’s tongues which is the major stumbling block for me, as I am inclined to yield and agree with you when you say that you were healed by the prayer of a Pentecostal couple, (I’d be more happy to embrace it if they weren’t Pentecostals at all! That’s my strong prejudice that I cannot overcome, having been with them for too long, and seen too much dirt mixed with very little gold), but then we are hit with this statement, and I am forced to think that my position is correct again, and that not everything is what it appears to be.
Upon what justification can we argue that there is such a thing as a prayer tongue that is, in fact, not a language at all? Or is some Angelic “spiritual” language? I am familiar with the verses, but can you present them and justify them? (If you have the time.) I have found that one ‘prayer tongue’ can be translated multiple times, in completely different ways. In fact, it was something they boasted about, something to do with how complicated this spiritual “language” was supposed to be. It also does not have any of the hallmarks of an actual language. No recognizable syntax, no common words that appear again and again, nothing at all. Just babbling, and not noticeably different from what known heretics have been known to do, as in the Oneness Pentecostals. I also despise the concept behind it, as I recall, the ‘teaching’ was that one was to pray in tongues often because it was the Holy Spirit praying on your behalf, which was much better than your actual prayers you did with your mind.
It’s worse than the Papists with their Hail Marys, who at least say something intelligible, even though they’re still quite useless! With this “prayer tongue,” you are not saying anything at all, not having a conversation, not receiving the benefits of such prayer, but are hoping and trusting that your babble is really accomplishing some unknown thing, instead of taking the time to discipline yourself and have a productive conversation with your God.
I remember that falsehood, making myself “pray in tongues” for 20 or 30 minutes at a time, because I thought it was “edifying” my spirit in some mysterious way, but in the end I wasn’t actually growing at all. If I had stayed with them, I suspect I would have remained completely stunted in my growth as a Christian.
I agree completely, caww. So caught up in the five senses, they cannot understand that we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. If it can’t be seen, or touched, or smelled, or heard, or tasted, then what good is it, they wonder. It’s the whole point of faith. We believe what we cannot see, hear, taste, smell or touch. And this is how they start down the trainwreck of having to use those 5 senses in order to believe. And then come the wolves in sheep’s clothing, so ready to deceive those who are not grounded in truth. It’s just a tragedy that could be avoided if the word of God is studied, rightly divided. And the worst part of it is, that it gets their eyes OFF 2 Cor. 5:14-21, preaching reconciliation to God by the finished work of Jesus Christ, and onto themselves completely. “What can I do to have MORE? Why isn’t God answering MY prayers? How can I get more faith so He will help me?” and so on. ANd the Gospel of the grace of God is set aside while they begin their journey of “ME”.
<...” placing experience over sound doctrine only has merit if experience is made the supreme judge rather than Scripture”...>
But in fact the experiences ‘ARE’ often, and more times than not, ‘used’ to validate their salvation rather than faith in Christ Jesus and His Word...which indeed is a judgement by their experiences.
Many use scripture to justify what they experience....rather like an individual uses scripture to continue drinking when it is a problem for them...”Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die”...comes to mind and has actually been used to justify binge drinking and or drunkenness.
Same too with those who are caught up in the emotionalism of their experiences.....which always needs more in order to maintain their sense of salvation....which isn’t based on faith rather on the experiences. The test of their faith oftentimes falls when they have not had an “experience” and thus they then depend on the experiences of the group/or another to validate they are still in the faith.
“What I’ve observed working with those involved with false religions and cults is it is very difficult for them to let loose of what they’ve “experienced”.....from astro- projection, though in third world countries is described otherwise yet much similar, to so called “enlightenment’ experiences...to those claiming to be “slain in the spirit” within the Charismatic movements.....all these attest to the individuals mind that they are “right” with God.... when in fact more times then not it’s a distraction from the true commitment and understanding they need to have in order to be saved.”
Unfortunately, this is quite correct. In fact, it wasn’t until I hit rock bottom after leaving these people, that I finally understood the scripture that ‘all things work unto good for them that love God, who are THE CALLED according to His purpose.” I learned the power of prayer, ironically, only after I left the miracle mongers.
In retrospect, my ideas about spiritual gifts and prayer were quite cheap compared to what they are now. In those days I was prone to despair. I wasn’t happy with what I had, but wanted more and more. And when “good” people inevitably fell, it hurt my heart and faith. For example, people who, from all appearances, are faithful and good Christians, suddenly go crazy with visions about the Avian flu killing off a good part of humanity (which never happened at the predicted time), or predictions of spiritual revivals that would come within the year, in this or that country, only to never happen. Or, suddenly being confronted by a fellow, who claims to have the gift of discernment, who declares that you are trying to seduce his wife.
All of these things, and more, happen among the Pentecostals/Charismatics. I witnessed them myself (and was accused too!), even in the midst of all these various wonderful things they claimed would happen to them or to others as a result of their gifts.
A friend of mine, who also left about the same time I did, told me later that she didn’t even understand the GOSPEL until AFTER she departed. Come to think of it, since I was always studying on my own anyway, I never noticed how little sound doctrine was taught in that ‘church.” They spent more time teaching about spiritual gifts than they did any other subject.
You can just fill out a questionnaire and find out what your gift is.Or sit around and talk about dreams and (probably) vain imaginings all day.Or be busy doing work like Martha or church programs or or or anything but let that Sword discern the thoughts and intents of your own heart.
I’ve had my share of so called “dry spells”....and when it seems even His word tastes bland and hard to digest. But it is at these times I lean hardest on Jesus alone....believing without seeing, touching, feeling or any other emotion other than the longing for Him that this induces.
The Psalmist knew all to well...”How long?” He asked...”When?”
“Why is my heart disquieted in me?” and on and on throughout the Psalms we see him question and wonder where are you God in this...why haven’t you done something....etc.
But these are IMO the times where our ‘faith is stretched’ beyond what we alone can do .....and for me the times when I might “feel” without Him...I KNOW HE is all the closer then.
It is ‘believing without seeing’...and I’ve never been blessed so much then at these times and thereafter...just as HE said would be so. And that blessing is a closer walk with Him up close and personal once more.
The text does not infer this is simply a known language, but states,
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (1 Corinthians 14:2)
The most natural conveyance of this is the speaker speaks in a language known only to God.
Upon what justification can we argue that there is such a thing as a prayer tongue that is, in fact, not a language at all? Or is some Angelic “spiritual” language?
Those are Paul's words, making a distinction btwn "the tongues of men and of angels," (1Cor. 13:1) That would be mysteries, so why not?
I also despise the concept behind it, as I recall, the ‘teaching’ was that one was to pray in tongues often because it was the Holy Spirit praying on your behalf, I understand the problem, and i am not convinced i have heard real tongues from most any, but as Paul's discipline attests, abuses do not justify disallowing anything geniune.
And what Scripture says is
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)
Likely the most disregarded text in Scripture.
It’s worse than the Papists with their Hail Marys, who at least say something intelligible, even though they’re still quite useless!
I would not doubt that charismatic Catholics pray in tongues to Mary(!), which hardly helps the Pentecostal case, but Scripture sanctions the gifts, but not praying to the departed.
I would rather censure the abuses and look for the genuine than use the abuses to disallow any continuance of the Pentecostal gifts today.
You can type faster than me!
I also came out of the Pentecost movement. What at first SEEMED so right became nothing more than a performance-based way to get God to bless us. Which is nothing more than works to get His approval. Stand alone with nothing more than a Bible, with no “tongues”, or miracles or apparitions, and preach the unadulterated gospel of the grace of God. And watch the people walk by, unimpressed. They ALL want special treatment from God, to know they are special. But that is NOT what God’s word tells us. It’s not easy to preach something that cannot be seen or heard or smelled or tasted or touched. But it IS our duty, as ambassadors for Christ. “NOW faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.”
Over time I've come to believe that God is never doing 'nothing' in my life.Wether I perceive it or not is irrelevant.
All too often true
That is a mark of immaturity, and aberrations abound. But my point is these do not warrant disallowing God from doing as He ever did, and manifesting the church is that of the living God in word and in power, as before.
Which comes down to doing the "work of God".
If it were to finally fully sink in,the simple fact that we are saved would be enough to have most folks running around as though their hair were on fire!...I'm sometimes almost thankfull that we see 'in part' because the full-whack right here and now might well result in a cranial explosion!
My point in all this is how do we know WHICH is WHICH and What is WHAT? Are there specific Scriptures one can go to to determine the true from the false?
Interesting post...I agree also that you likely would have been stunted in your growth...I can attest to many who are and can remain there for years and years.
As for glossillia...or speaking in unknown tongues....that will always be a “sore spot” for Charismatics as doing so appears to rise many above fellow Christians who don’t.
I can tell you that this so called “gift” today is mostly a counterfeit. I make an exception for very few and rare, who do not practice it but are primarily used by God in the Mission field when it’s a rare occurance completely orchestrated by God...and it’s with a ‘known language’...but unknown to the individual God chooses to appoint as a witness to another. Again it is rare.
I say the unknown tongue is counterfeit because it’s also found among native Africans and Haitians using witchcraft and various other pagan religions practiced in third worlds.
One woman who thought she spoke in this unknown tongue learned pagans used it as well...she went to the Lord and very simply asked Him to remove it if it were not from Him...that He alone was enough for her and she did not want to be deceived.....she never spoke it again thereafter.
Personally why would talking to God in some other language somehow edify one more than speaking and having conversation with Him one on one? It makes no sense to me except that it would likely elevate one to “feeling special” above the average Christian who doesn’t.
<...”Over time I’ve come to believe that God is never doing ‘nothing’ in my life. Wether I perceive it or not is irrelevant”....>
The Christian walk was never intended to be an easy walk.....in fact most of us know that life in this fallen world is tough, more than not, in maintaining life as He wants us to live. But as one wise senior one stated...
“life is tough for Christians but along the way God affords us these wonderful moments when we enjoy a long ignored sunset, or a babies smile so often missed, or a family gathering and the sound of the Hum only a family knows when together.”
We miss these moments because life today requires we “run” through it........IMO the only thing we really should be running with is the Gospel Message and it’s teachings when that door is open wide to do so. Otherwise enjoy those moments and Him in them...even when life is dry and seemingly uneventful....HE seems to always show up in the most unusual and unexpected ways! (smiling)
“....the simple fact that we are saved would be enough to have most folks running around as though their hair were on fire!...I’m sometimes almost thankfull that we see ‘in part’ because the full-whack right here and now might well result in a cranial explosion!”
That is so true...and reminds me of a man who week after week could only say “thank you Lord for saving me and others” when He was called on to pray. HE was asked about this and simply state...”What more is there that can top that?”
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