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1 posted on 11/19/2013 6:10:28 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: metmom; Alex Murphy
For example, after the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Catholic Church lost not only the claim to be “always the same” but also its claim to be theologically conservative. Besides the great number of changes that took place at Vatican II (for example, the institution of the vernacular Mass), the documents embraced mutually incompatible theologies. Perhaps the most remarkable change that took place in Rome was its view of salvation outside of the church, which amounts to a form of universalism: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience” (Lumen Gentium 16; hereafter LG). Protestants, who were condemned at the Council of Trent (1545–1563), were now referred to as “separated fellow Christians” (Unitatis Redintegratio 4). Once (and still?) anathematized Protestants are now Christians? This is a contradiction. But even worse, present-day Roman Catholic theologians candidly admit that those who try to be good possess divine, saving grace, even if they do not explicitly trust in Christ.
2 posted on 11/19/2013 6:12:26 AM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; CynicalBear; ...
Whatever pretended gains one receives from moving to Rome, one thing he most certainly does not receive—in fact, he loses it altogether—is the assurance of faith (Council of Trent 6.9; hereafter CT). It is little wonder that the brilliant Catholic theologian Robert Bellarmine (1542–1621) once remarked that assurance was the greatest Protestant heresy. If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness, then assurance is impossible until the verdict is rendered. For Protestants, that verdict is a present reality; the righteousness of Christ imputed to us is the sole meritorious cause of our entrance into eternal life. But for Roman Catholics—and those outside of the church who “do good”—inherent righteousness is a part of their justification before God (CT 6.7).

Security of the believer

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

3 posted on 11/19/2013 6:18:50 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Gamecock

Too many brethren joining the Catholic Church - eh?


4 posted on 11/19/2013 6:27:09 AM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: Gamecock

I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or somesuch.


6 posted on 11/19/2013 6:30:42 AM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Gamecock
"To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ."

Not so. For my wife and me, our Tiber swim took place 19 years ago to be with Him, not give Him up. The author cites two of the four classic Protestant barriers to Rome; the role of Mary and the authority of the pope. Those two, along with the role of the saints and the meaning of the Eucharist, are the primary obstacles. But once the last of these, the meaning of the Eucharist, was literally understood in terms of John Chapter 6, the swim became a necessity. It was no longer an option to stay with the "dog and pony show". We had to be with Jesus.

10 posted on 11/19/2013 8:47:56 AM PST by Reo (the 4th Estate is a 5th Column)
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To: Gamecock

In America, whites are leaving Catholicism, mass democrat immigration keeps the numbers somewhat steady.


25 posted on 11/19/2013 10:59:09 AM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: Gamecock

People searching for truth will be swimming the Tiber 2,000 years from now “so that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.”


26 posted on 11/19/2013 11:19:23 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Gamecock
From what I see it is those Protestants who wanted a religious experience or those who perhaps sought Jesus but never found him...

It is inconceivable to me that a Spirit indwelt Christian would take on a religion which teaches that you are in error and not indwelt with the Holy Spirit...I'd say it's impossible for a born again Christian to become a Catholic...

27 posted on 11/19/2013 11:31:03 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Gamecock
In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alone—not He and Mary (LG 62)—intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alone—not the pope (LG 22)—is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alone—not pagan “dictates of conscience” (LG 16)—must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christ’s righteousness alone—not ours (LG 40)—is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.

Thank you for posting this. The doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone was the MAJOR reason why I rejected the religion I was born and raised in and there is NO impetus for me to ever need to return to it. It is for that very reason that Bellarmine stated - there can be no assurance of salvation in a religion that makes personal righteousness the cause of it. This assurance - the imputation of Christ's righeousness clearly and unambiguously taught in Scripture - is something NOTHING can steal from me!

30 posted on 11/19/2013 1:59:13 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Gamecock

Every institution in the world has its good guys and its bad guys. Even among the twelve apostles, one of them was the world’s worst traitor.

But Jesus said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

That does NOT mean that members of the Church will not fall into sin, including priests and bishops, or even that all of the Popes will be good people. But it does mean that when a Pope or a Church Council formally proclaims something, it will be preserved from error.

I’m not a great fan of Vatican II. Some of the Church’s councils over the years have been extremely important; others were minor or almost forgotten except by historians. But all of them have been preserved from outright error or heresy.

That includes Vatican II. I have read ALL of the documents of the Council, as have various theologians whom I admire, and there is NO heresy or basic change in any of the documents. It was the so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” that was pushed by liberals within the Church that called for change, or claimed a break from the past. Not so. A lot of foolish things have been done, but no heresies have been promulgated by the Council or recent Popes’ formal documents.

A few things were said in the Council which, taken out of context, could be twisted into looking like heresies—but that is only if you actually neglect to read what was really said, and take some liberal jerk’s word for it.

As for the theme of the title, Catholics and Evangelicals are, in one way, at opposite ends of the spectrum; but in another they have an important thing in common—they are both serious Christians. There are some weak Evangelicals, just as there are some weak Catholics. I’ve known some of both. But both are intensely Christian, unlike some of the Mainline churches.

I’m sorry that you spend all your time in the forum attacking the Catholic Church. Catholics and Evangelicals should be working together—and indeed often do work together—fighting the serious crimes of the Communist politicians who increasingly threaten Christianity in all its forms, not to mention our country and our freedoms.

As I’ve said before, I’ve spent some time in academia working together with Evangelicals. We could agree to disagree on important points of the faith, but we could pray together and work together against our common enemies, such as the pro-abortionists and the marriage destroyers.


265 posted on 11/20/2013 8:22:27 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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