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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I have not only read Augustine, I had a graduate school class on his writings.
You don’t compare authoritativeness by the “number of times” a person is cited.

Besides, have you read Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, which is placed next to the Bible in Oxford’s Bordlein Library for its profound interpretations of Scripture?

Have you also read Cardinal Henry Newsman’s writing who as a lead Anglican scholar converted to the Church and founded the renowned Oxford Movement? Or, why not simply review the writings of the foremost American Lutheran theologian Richard Neuhaus, who after many years of teaching in established universities converted to Catholicism. These individuals after a lifetime of scholarship and theological training and instruction had the humility to acknowledge they were hopeless wrong. Even better, consult the great English Essayist, Hillaire Belloc, in his book, “The Great Heresies” for a superb rendition on why all of Protestantism is nothing more than a “cluster of heresies” peddled by mediocre men. I wish this book were made mandatory reading in all high schools.


23 posted on 01/05/2014 4:22:33 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Steelfish

“I have not only read Augustine, I had a graduate school class on his writings.”


So are you a Lutheran or a Reformed Presbyterian?

Augustine on irresistible grace, final perseverance, limited atonement, and whatever else I missed which he touches on here:

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)

“These individuals after a lifetime of scholarship and theological training and instruction “


None of which has evidently benefited you anything, since you can’t ‘scholar” your way out of simple sentences like “Why ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.”


28 posted on 01/05/2014 4:45:13 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Steelfish; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Cardinal Henry Newsman’s

Its Newman.

had the humility to acknowledge they were hopeless wrong.

And so he is, as contrary to how the church began, as said, following an itinerant Preacher who was rejected by those who were the steward of Scripture sitting in Moses seat, Newman subscribes to the cultic trust in men, in which, as said, objective examination of evidence is discouraged in seeking to determine the veracity of official RC teachings,

"in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.” 8. The Vatican Council lhttp://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )]

Thus even if not taught in Scripture, if Rome says it, then it true. Cultic, not Scriptural.

30 posted on 01/05/2014 4:55:28 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Steelfish
Have you also read Cardinal Henry Newsman’s writing who as a lead Anglican scholar converted to the Church and founded the renowned Oxford Movement? Or, why not simply review the writings of the foremost American Lutheran theologian Richard Neuhaus, who after many years of teaching in established universities converted to Catholicism. These individuals after a lifetime of scholarship and theological training and instruction had the humility to acknowledge they were hopeless wrong. Even better, consult the great English Essayist, Hillaire Belloc, in his book, “The Great Heresies” for a superb rendition on why all of Protestantism is nothing more than a “cluster of heresies” peddled by mediocre men. I wish this book were made mandatory reading in all high schools.

Have you ever read the bible???

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

76 posted on 01/05/2014 10:52:06 PM PST by Iscool
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