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To: re_nortex; annalex; Iscool

The King James is a fine translation. I use it for most purposes, but I also like the New King James, which retains the majestic form and cadence of the original but avoids English words that are no longer used. This can be good, but there can also be some loss this way, because, for just one example, the old English captures personal pronouns in a variety similar to the Greek, whereas modern pronouns are not as expressive.

For example, Greek has an analog to the singular thou versus plural ye of English. For modern translations, the ye would have to be rendered “you all” (or y’all, depending on where you live) to maintain the Greek sense. So it’s not all sweetness and light to leave behind some of those alleged archaisms. Some of them were pretty useful.

As for “accepted” versus “graced” in Ephesians 1:6, both are acceptable renderings of the root idea, but “accepted” does a better job, IMHO, expressing “favor” in its passive form in a way that connects it meaningfully to finding such favor “in the Beloved.” For a 15th Century Englishman, having your person “accepted” by the King through an intermediary was to discover you had the King’s favor. Somewhat a paraphrase, but a powerful and legitimate communicator of the sense of the original.

(BTW, I should point out that a number of the scholars doing the translation for the KJV had studied the Hebrew and Greek and Latin from their preteen years, along with many of the cognate languages that were tributaries into the main Biblical languages (Persian, Chaldee, etc.). (John Bois, for example, was reputed to have learned to read the full Hebrew text by age 5. That’s five.) They were the cutting edge scholarship of the day. One needs to be quite sure of one’s footing before picking a fight with them.)

Another thing which separates the KJV (and the NKJV) from modern versions is the commitment to the Byzantine text form. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus were discovered only relatively recently, and have many significantly different readings from the Byzantine, hence the many confusing conflicts between most modern versions and the KJV.

The argument is made for the modern translations that older is better, and Sinaiticus and Vaticanus do make a claim to being physically older. Sinaiticus was found in Saint Catherine’s monastery in the 19th Century. It is thought by some it survived because the active church simply did not use it. Whereas the wide geographic distribution of the Byzantine suggests it was the text form most widely used by the active church.


60 posted on 04/20/2014 10:52:10 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer; re_nortex; Iscool
Somewhat a paraphrase

That's the point: in a translation that does not pretend to be really a paraphrase, like the "dynamic" trash, it is not acceptable (pardon the pun).

The use of modern pronouns is also not for serious reading of the Bible.

I should add that indeed one must verify Douay against the Greek (or Young's Literal) before arguing from it; it kept the errors of Vulgate, some quite serious, like:

1 Corinthians
  English: Douay-Rheims Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000) English: King James Version
  1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. ιδου μυστηριον υμιν λεγω παντες μεν ου κοιμηθησομεθα παντες δε αλλαγησομεθα Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Who knows why St. Jerome got himself confused by these "μεν" (in some copies, "indeed"), “ου” (“not”) and “δε” (“but”). Maybe he had a corrupted copy.

64 posted on 04/21/2014 5:59:23 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Springfield Reformer; annalex
As for “accepted” versus “graced” in Ephesians 1:6, both are acceptable renderings of the root idea, but “accepted” does a better job

Exactly...To say 'we have been graced' is far too broad of a definition...First we need to know what graced means and then translate it based on how it's used in the context...

(BTW, I should point out that a number of the scholars doing the translation for the KJV had studied the Hebrew and Greek and Latin from their preteen years, along with many of the cognate languages that were tributaries into the main Biblical languages (Persian, Chaldee, etc.). (John Bois, for example, was reputed to have learned to read the full Hebrew text by age 5. That’s five.) They were the cutting edge scholarship of the day. One needs to be quite sure of one’s footing before picking a fight with them.)

I doubt that anyone since then has become their equal in bible translation...

71 posted on 04/21/2014 10:49:44 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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