Posted on 04/23/2014 5:58:42 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue in the United States has released a document, “Ecclesiology and Moral Discernment: Seeking a Unified Moral Witness,” that acknowledges “how differently our two communions structure and exercise authority, not only with respect to moral teaching but all forms of teaching. Our teachings do differ in content, specificity, and detail.”
“The absence of an authoritative universal magisterium among the churches of the Anglican Communion marks a signal difference in the structure of teaching authority,” the statement added. “Without such a universal teaching authority it is difficult to state definitively the teaching Anglicans hold on many specific matters, beyond the governing documents and prayer book of each particular church. This fact marks a signal difference in the structure of teaching authority from the Roman Catholic Church and helps to explain a significant tension in the relationship between Anglicans and Roman Catholics.”
In examining same-sex unions, the joint statement said that “the teaching of the Episcopal Church on same-sex sexuality may be said to accept an unresolved tension between primary textual authorities on the one hand and local councils (both General Convention and diocesan conventions) on the other.”
“It is hard to see how our differences in moral theology and ecclesiology will be resolved, and it is not clear to many whether they should be,” the authors of the statement said in their conclusion. “The ecumenical movement teaches that legitimate diversity has its place in the Church, and history demonstrates that this is true.”
That is why Christ established His ONE Church, with a structure, and a leader with the power to 'loose and bind'
Agreed. How about these Theologians get together and exercise a joint statement on alarming rate of out of wedlock births in the US. Couldn’t conservative Christians, Catholics, and Evangelicals agree on this? Truths is when it comes to morality and marriage the Church in the US is not “set apart” from the unchurched.
....Or planting the seeds for spiritual/faith renewel.
Mortalium Animos.
That is why Christ established His ONE Church, with a structure, and a leader with the power to 'loose and bind'
The easy things are easy. More complex things are less so.
Just because you believe the Pope can be infallible given the right situation, why do you extrapolate this to all situations? Why have blind faith in an earthly organization that is known to make mistakes?
I have absolute faith in the word of God, but I do not have absolute faith in anyone's interpretation. If something is wrong or askew, I question it. I learn, I pray, I grow. I will never get it 100% correct, just as my synod will never get it 100% correct.
My foundation is the words of the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. Everything else must be built on top of that foundation. When we build, we either use gold or straw. The straw will burn away and be forgotten. To claim everything is built with gold ignores the reality of this fallen world.
Really? Christians can’t even agree on what the meaning of the word “is” is, or if water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Just because you believe the Pope can be infallible given the right situation, why do you extrapolate this to all situations? Why have blind faith in an earthly organization that is known to make mistakes?
We are all sinners. The Pope is only infallible certain situations, yes. Because that is what Scripture clearly says.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
Here Christ says his Church will not be destroyed.
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.
I have absolute faith in the word of God, but I do not have absolute faith in anyone's interpretation. If something is wrong or askew, I question it. I learn, I pray, I grow. I will never get it 100% correct, just as my synod will never get it 100% correct.
But despite how many times “This is my body” shows up in Scripture, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!!! You do NOT have absolute faith in the clear words of Scripture, but believe “Is” really means “represents” That is not absolute faith. That is believing what you want to believe, and ignoring the clear words of Scripture.
My foundation is the words of the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.
This proves you do not believe Scripture, and just make up things or believe what someone else told you. This is what Scripture teaches is the ‘foundation of truth’:
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
Here are a few questions to ponder on your faith journey:
1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2. Other than the specific command to John to write the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
4. Where did the table of contents of the Bible come from?
5. What do you think happened to all the “stuff” in John 21:25? “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
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On the contrary. The teaching held definitively by Anglicans is that there is no definitive teaching. Of course this doesn't make sense. It doesn't need to make sense. It needs only to provide a pretext, no matter how transparent, for people to do what they want.
Anglicanism is an empty vessel, filled with what-you-will.
Well that's your problem right there, because you have no way of know what is and what is not the word of God -- unless you accept it on someone's authority. So where can that rock-solid, reliable authority be found?
The Bible is not self-authenticating or self-interpreting. Some person has to have the authority. So who's the pope? Me? You? Unless Jesus played us a dirty trick, somebody has to be.
Christians throughout history have worked together to collect and preserve the scriptures. One group or individual can try to elevate themselves to supreme authority, but it is the Christian collective that has worked through the holy spirit.
The Bible is not self-authenticating or self-interpreting. Some person has to have the authority.
There is no final authority on earth. Test every spirit. Who is to do the testing? The individual christian within the individual churches within the various synods.
With regards to the interpretation, there is a process that has been going on since the beginning of the church. Not everything that has been interpreted has been true. Mistakes leads to heresy and heterodox. Starting with the early church, through the reformation, and continuing until today. The individual does not have his own interpretation, but works with other like-minded Christians to follow those who interpretations are right and orthodox. We judge to the best of their ability, never expecting perfection.
So who's the pope? Me? You? Unless Jesus played us a dirty trick, somebody has to be.
Stop thinking of earthly matters and earthly dominion. There is no final authority on earth who can speak for all of Christianity. The authority is based within each congregation, with the pastor having the primary role. But this is not unquestioning devotion, but a trust. If the pastor breaks that trust, he is reproached. If he does not repent, he is removed.
Why would you put your trust in a man and abdicate your responsibility to the word of God. There is no new revelation. There is no secret revelation. There is the written word. Hearsay doesn't cut it.
The apostles clearly write that we are to follow their spoken and their written word. Because of the work of Christians and the holy spirit, I have faith that the written word as recorded in the Bible is authentic.
With regards to the apostles spoken words, that is not something I can follow. Their spoken words, if not recorded, can not be authenticated. There are no secret revelations. Everything they taught, they taught in public.
2. Other than the specific command to John to write the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
Why would hearsay be a better option? That's just silly. Have you ever reviewed the amount of work that went into authenticating the written words of the apostles?
3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
We're repeating ourselves, but it's a simple process. The apostles said to follow their words (written and spoken). What promise do we have that their spoken words have been preserved through the Roman Catholic Church?
4. Where did the table of contents of the Bible come from?
Christians working together producing works that have been tested by other Christians.
5. What do you think happened to all the “stuff” in John 21:25? “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Interesting, but irrelevant for my salvation. If it was not written down, it is gone from history. If it is gone from history, my salvation does not depend upon it.
What words or deeds of Christ has the Roman Catholic Church preserved that were never written down? There might be a book of stories somewhere, but which stories are true, which are fiction, and which are some of each? How can we tell? Such stories and hearsay are irrelevant because they have not been tested and retested by Christians.
The spoken teachings of the apostles are well known. You simply choose to reject them.
Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.
Were we reading the same verses? What you quoted is clearly about the holy spirit, not about the church.
Titus 1:9 "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it."
Titus 2:15 "Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you."
The authority and command is given to individuals, not to an earthly organization.
But despite how many times “This is my body” shows up in Scripture, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!!! You do NOT have absolute faith in the clear words of Scripture, but believe “Is” really means “represents” That is not absolute faith. That is believing what you want to believe, and ignoring the clear words of Scripture.
Wrong assumption. I do believe that IS means IS. The body and blood of Jesus is in, under, and with the wine and the bread. How is this possible? I do not know. It does not trouble me that my rational mind can not understand all of the truths of God.
My foundation is the words of the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.
This proves you do not believe Scripture, and just make up things or believe what someone else told you.
I was referencing Ephesians 2:19-21 "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord."
This is what Scripture teaches is the ‘foundation of truth’: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
Poor translation. Only the NIV uses the word foundation. Other versions use buttress, bulwark, and support. We build on the foundation, which is the words of the prophets and apostles.
What are you talking about? What teachings of the apostles, not contained in the Bible, have been authenticated as accurate and inspired? What was the test of these spoken words attributed to the apostles?
The apostles are the original authenticators of Jesus and his works. Their successors fill that office today.
The apostles clearly write that we are to follow their spoken and their written word
EXACTLY. But you only follow the written word.
With regards to the apostles spoken words, that is not something I can follow.
You just said the apostles clearly write that we are to follow their spoken and their written word. You make no sense.
And with the written word, you do not believe “This is my Body” means ‘This is My Body” You are not being honest. You take the clear words of Scripture and change them to support your man-made beliefs.
Have you ever reviewed the amount of work that went into authenticating the written words of the apostles?
Yes. That is why the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, who Christ promised would lead us to all TRUTH, gave us Scripture.
What promise do we have that their spoken words have been preserved through the Roman Catholic Church?
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
Here Christ says his Church will not be destroyed.
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."Mat 28:18-20
Again, here Jesus assures us that He is always with us, to the very end.
So Christ says His Church will not be destroyed or fall away from him, that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church to always teach the Truth, and He will always be with us. The Church is much more than a collection of nice people who read a Bible and believe anything they want.
Christians working together producing works that have been tested by other Christians.
So when Martin Luther wants to remove the Epistle of James, you are OK with that.
If it was not written down, it is gone from history.
Where is that in the Bible? You are just making that up. Earlier you said you believe in the spoken word. Spoken word is affirmed in Scripture.
You are just making up your own religion, and are not following Scripture.
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