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To: .45 Long Colt

I have spent enough time to reject TULIP. The problem is hinted at in the article: “From an early age, Calvin was a precocious student who excelled at Latin and philosophy...Calvin wrote his magnum opus, The Institutes of the Christian Religion, at the age of 27”.

Calvin should have spent more time learning of the Lord from studying scripture and less time trying to impose a 27 year old’s philosophy upon it.

He would read we are “dead” in our sins, and take that as a literal statement, without looking at the many passages that describe us as sick, captive, blind, enemies of God, etc. He failed to realize that scripture is often written of in a poetic style which is not meant to be taken literally, at least not out of context. For example:

“In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.”

That is hard to reconcile with:

““There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

At least, it is out of context. In context, one can understand it simply enough without concluding there is a conflict between the two. A little humility goes a long way when reading God’s Word, and humility is not something 27 year old men writing systematic theology are noted for. It reminds me of J Vernon McGhee’s comment that there were 2 days in his life when he could have explained all there was to know about God - the day he entered seminary, and the day he left!

One of the main failures of Calvin was his failure to grasp the corporate nature of election: we are elect IN CHRIST. Being “In Christ” is something that a tribal herder could understand, but that is foreign to someone raised in a world of nation/states. We are the Elect because we are “In Christ”. This quote explains it fairly well:

“We have already noted that God’s Old Covenant people were chosen in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. More specifically, God chose Abraham and his descendants, but limited his election of Abraham’s descendants to only some of them by his choice of Isaac as the head of the covenant through whom Abraham’s covenant descendants were to be reckoned. He then limited his election of the covenant descendants even further by his choice of Jacob as the head of the covenant. At the same time, and as already pointed out above, people not naturally related to Jacob and so not part of the elect people could join the chosen people, becoming part of the elect. On the other hand, individual members of the elect people could be cut off from the covenant people due to violation of the covenant, rendering them non-elect.

Finally, the Apostle Paul would argue, God limited his election even further to Christ as the head of the New Covenant (Gal. 3–4; see especially 3:16; cf. Rom. 3–4; 8), which is the fulfillment of the Old. Paradoxically, this also widened the election of God’s people because all who are in Christ by faith are chosen by virtue of their identification with Christ the corporate covenantal head, opening covenant membership to Gentiles as Gentiles. Just as God’s Old Covenant people were chosen in Jacob/Israel, the Church was chosen in Christ (as Eph. 1:4 puts it). And as Ephesians 2 makes clear, Gentiles who believe in Christ are in him made to be part of the commonwealth of Israel, fellow citizens with the saints, members of God’s household, and possessors of the covenants of promise (2:11-22; note especially vv. 12, 19). Indeed, any Jews who did not believe in Jesus were cut off from the elect people, and any believing Gentiles who stop believing will likewise be cut off, while anyone who comes to faith, whether Jew or Gentile, will be incorporated into God’s people (Rom. 11:17-24).

In the New Covenant, God’s people are chosen corporately as a consequence of their union with Christ, which is effected by faith. While this is not quite the traditional Arminian position, it fully supports Arminian theology because it is a conditional election. Most directly, such election is conditioned on being in Christ. But then being in Christ is itself conditioned on faith, meaning that the divine election of God’s people and the election of individuals for salvation is ultimately conditional on faith in Christ. (Misconceptions, pp. 7, 8, emphasis his)”

http://evangelicalarminians.org/corporate-election-quotes/

Thus Calvin ended up exalting election over faith, so that we are saved by grace thru election, and then given faith to be saved. In reality, we are saved by grace thru faith, and then placed “In Christ” where we are predestined to become like Christ.

When Jesus commanded us to “Repent and believe”, he was not giving an impossible command. God took the initiative in revealing Himself, and reaching down to man, and making it possible for man to respond. Those who respond with faith - faith is something we do in response to someone else, by definition - are placed In Christ, and sealed with the Holy Spirit. And In Christ, we have access to everything:

“It is by God’s grace that you have been saved. 6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world. 7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus. 8-9 For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it. 10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.”


39 posted on 05/28/2014 10:11:55 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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To: Mr Rogers
Calvin should have spent more time learning of the Lord from studying scripture and less time trying to impose a 27 year old’s philosophy upon it.

The ignorance of this statement is that Calvin didn't even invent his doctrines. Luther wrote the same thing in his Bondage of the Will, as did Augustine in his anti-Pelagian books. Calvin's views were the views of the Reformation.

I find that most people, especially those who claim to have studied the most on it, are breathtakingly ignorant on even the most basic definitions or facts of history. I suspect it might either be that they take their studies on websites that reinforce their views rather than sticking to the scripture or checking the source texts they hate.

41 posted on 05/28/2014 11:26:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Mr Rogers

I’m not debating it. Believe as you will. I used to make those same arguments, so I know where you are coming from. I even bought a complete set of J. Vernon McGee’s commentaries decades ago and went through the Bible with him. We likely had many of the same influences.

When you stroll into heaven singing I have decided to follow Jesus, I’ll be the one belting out Amazing Grace.

By the way, did you know Calvin had nothing to do with TULIP?


46 posted on 05/29/2014 5:45:06 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Mr Rogers

One last thing before I get caught up in my day, I strongly caution you against engaging in debates on Calvinism. Don’t study God’s Word to disprove it either because you will be playing with fire. One of the best ways I know to eventually become a Calvinist is to rail against it. If you don’t want to believe it, don’t argue against it.

Very few people in my Baptist church grew up believing the Doctrines of Grace. We are made up of people who were typical Southern Baptists (as I was), Methodists, Pentecostals, Roman Catholics, Church of Christ, etc. Almost every single person I have discussed it with will say that at one time they too scoffed at “Calvinism” and that includes our pastor. He had attended seminary and pastored churches before he understood Divine Sovereignty. That was more than forty years ago and since that time he has been used mightily of the Lord. He is an humble man who has never promoted himself, but today his work actively impacts countless people in countless countries on three continents.

Of course I’m telling you to be careful with tongue planted firmly in cheek. That said, what I’m saying is true. Almost everyone I know who has come to be a “Calvinist” as an adult started off by arguing with someone in support of some form of free will theology. The most bold, fearless, and effective evangelists I know are former Arminians who discovered God’s sovereignty. The foreign mission field is full of believers just like that. I know a group of people just like that who are in a very dangerous place in a foreign country as I type. There have been murders in the streets since they arrived. I also know a man who went from railing against Calvinism to literally hacking his way through foreign jungles with a machete in search of some of God’s lost sheep. Emboldened by God’s sovereignty, he has given decades and risked life and limb spreading the gospel to isolated people groups. Two weeks ago I heard a former Pentecostal speak about a sidewalk ministry she has become involved in. She is half my age, yet her boldness in witnessing to extremely antagonistic lost people puts me to shame. After becoming a Calvinist she has become a fearless laborer in the field for the Lord of the harvest.

Remember, “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)

May God bless you, FRiend.


56 posted on 05/29/2014 6:55:17 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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