Posted on 06/02/2014 3:21:30 PM PDT by NYer
That's what the scriptures say that the Catholics claim are to be taken literally...
So how do you deal with the contradiction???
1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
4) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?
Well, that is what Scripture says. You should try reading Scripture once in a while, instead of making things up.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him. John 6
So here we see the link between not believing in the real presence and betrayal. And then later:
"Because of this many of His disciples turned back and no longer went about with Him." (John 6:66)
from your previous post: (DB88)source of the doctrine of transubstantiation is not the Scriptures. This is not true.
Transubstantiation
The Roman Catholic Church through history approached her faith life with the clarification of language. That is, she translated the essentials of revealed faith into the vocabulary of living language.
To the revealed Word that there is “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” the Church labeled the belief “Trinity.”
To the revealed Word that the “Son of God became man” the Church labeled the belief “Incarnation.”
To the revealed Word that the “blood of Christ spilled on Calvary saved us” the Church labeled the belief “Redemption.”
To the revealed Word that “my flesh is true food, my blood is true drink” the Church labeled the belief “Transubstantiation.”
Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.
Jesus (omnipotent God) said: “This is my body; this is my blood.” And again Jesus said: “I am the bread of life;” “My flesh is true food; my blood is true drink;” “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood ...;” etc.
Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.
From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.
Similar to all of God’s Word, faith is essential. Faith in what? In the words of Jesus even though the bread does not look, feel, taste like flesh; even though the wine does not look, feel, taste like blood.
Medieval philosophers and theologians sought simply to label this simple biblical faith: Jesus said that bread is his body and wine is his blood even though it did not appear to change into visible flesh and blood.
Transubstantiation means the substance part of the bread and wine elements changes; but the accidental parts—sight, taste, smell, touch—do not. Catholics believe that since Jesus said it and He is God, he can do it. They believe! “Transubstantiation” merely labels it.
In everyday life, it is not at all uncommon to believe in things man cannot perceive by the senses: wind, electricity, love, peace, etc. All the more when Jesus says it.
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap060500.htm#ap060503
Are you trying to do the devil’s work by denying the TRUTH (Jesus Christ)?
Why do you feel the need to lie about the beliefs of the Catholic Church? You may interpret the Word of God based on your man-made church, but your interpretation does not and will not change the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Actually, your repetitive rantings are not adding to the discussion. There has many informative postings that you ignore and do not seem to understand that explain Catholic Faith and teachings.
I hope that you read them and allow the Holy Spirit to allow you to understand the Word of God.
May God’s Peace be with you.
Jesus didn't die at the Last Supper...He didn't even have the glorified body that you guys claim you and the Apostles eat/ate...
So do you really have any Faith in Jesus, or do just like to echo the devil?
Correcting you guys with scripture is not the work of the Devil...
You really don't know English. or Greek. Is is not Am. Are you really suggesting Christ said "this am my body" ??? Insane. Irrational. Stupid.
Correcting you guys with scripture is not the work of the Devil..
It is the work of the Devil when you lie about the Truth and about God.
Who made you the authority on the Word of God? God does not favor arrogant Christians who profess to know all. Jesus was a humble man that obediently followed God the Father and Jesus expects us to follow His example and teachings.
May the Holy Spirit help you understand.
Origen: "I want to base my exhortation to you on example drawn from your religious practices. You regularly attend the various myteries, and you know reverently and carefully protect the Body of the Lord when it is given to you, for you fear that a fragment of it may fall ot the ground and part of the consecrated treasure be lost. If it did, you would regard yourselves as culpable, and rightly so."[1]
Clement: "The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word." [2]
Eusebius: "Since then according to the witness of the prophets the great and precious ransom has been found for Jews and Greeks alike, the propitiation for the whole world, the life given for the life of all men, the pure offering for every stain and sin, the Lamb of God, the holy sheep dear to God, the Lamb that was foretold, by Whose inspired and mystic teaching all we Gentiles have procured the forgiveness of our former sins, and such Jews as hope in Him are freed from the curse of Moses, daily celebrating His memorial, the remembrance of His Body and Blood, and are admitted to a greater sacrifice than that of the ancient law, we do not reckon it right to fall back upon the first beggarly elements, which are symbols and likenesses but do not contain the truth itself." [3]
Tertullian: Similarly, too, touching the days of Stations, most think that they must not be present at the sacrificial prayers, on the ground that the Station must be dissolved by reception of the Lord's Body. Does, then, the Eucharist cancel a service devoted to God, or bind it more to God? [4]
Augustine: "You ought to know what you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ." [5]
[1] Rordorf, W. (1978). The Eucharist of the early Christians. New York: Pueblo Pub. Co.
[2] Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. (n.d.). Retrieved June 3, 2014, from http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html#clement_a
[3] Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) --Book 1. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_de_03_book1.htm
[4]Fathers of the Church - Catholic Culture. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/view.cfm?recnum=1676
[5] Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. (n.d.). Retrieved June 3, 2014, from http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html#clement_a
So there you have it...Jesus knew these people would leave LONG before he mentioned anything about eating his body...So THAT is not why they left...
Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit and they shall be created. And You shall renew the face of the earth.
O, God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise and ever enjoy His consolations, Through Christ Our Lord, Amen.
Finally, some sensible questions. Some, obviously, are mistaken. I will improve them in my answers. I realize you did not post this specifically to me, but it looked fun to answer.
“1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?”
He did not. It is not. However, His inspired Word stands alone as authoritative, revelatory truth. Natural revelation is general. Only in His Word has he moved men under the Holy Spirit to record His Words. Faith comes from that Word, via the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men. It is taught in local assemblies to help mature and equip believers. As such, it is FAR more than “a book.”
“2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?”
God the Father moved individual men by the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ did not command them beyond that. God’s act and the Holy Spirit’s inspiration were more than sufficient.
“3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?”
It is not. The Words of God are recorded in Scripture. The Holy Spirit illumines them in the hearts of believers. He has also gifted the Church with teachers. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith results from God’s Word as the Holy Spirit works in hearts.
“4) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?”
There is no official list. Never has been one. Isn’t today. We trust that God worked through history and believers to select books with the ring of truth, that had no errors, that did not conflict with manuscripts known to be inspired.
Before the Church, the Nation of Israel collected the sacred scrolls that were inspired. They had no list. The early church did the same. Eventually a canon was formed - largely in response to the false books circulating that claimed to be inspired. It was done for the good of the Church. Since that time, the non-Roman Church has had plenty of time to reexamine those choices and correct errors.
Thanks for asking and the opportunity to write about our Wonderful Savior and Father and Holy Spirit, who have worked in history to accomplish salvation for those who believe.
So you believe that???
Yes. I believe.
To the revealed Word that there is “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” the Church labeled the belief “Trinity.”
To the revealed Word that the “Son of God became man” the Church labeled the belief “Incarnation.”
To the revealed Word that the “blood of Christ spilled on Calvary saved us” the Church labeled the belief “Redemption.”
To the revealed Word that “my flesh is true food, my blood is true drink” the Church labeled the belief “Transubstantiation.”
Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.
I am sorry that you do not believe, and I hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you so that you become a believer and accept the TRUTH.
O, God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise and ever enjoy His consolations, Through Christ Our Lord, Amen.
Amen.
“It always amazes me that Romanists can be so blind...if I were not told by the Scriptures that this is God blinding them.”
It always amazes me that Protestant anti-Catholics can use a pejorative like “Romanists” and then insist they actually should be taken seriously about their claims about God blinding anyone other than themselves.
So all one has to do is walk into a Catholic Church and eat a wafer and he goes to heaven... I find it hard to believe that you believe that but I guess you must since you have to take the verse literally...
Yes, when I partake in the Eucharist and attempt to follow Christ’s teachings and learn to love and grow closer to God, I expect to join HIM in Heaven. Yet I am still subject to HIS judgment at my death.
I trust and believe in the words of Jesus:
Jn 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Jn 6:53
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Jn 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
Jn 6:55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Jn 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
I hope that you will also be able to believe in the words of Jesus.
How about today at Daily Mass.
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