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To: fso301; boatbums; aMorePerfectUnion; Greetings_Puny_Humans; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer
Back from the dead. I had installed a Firefox extension called "Lazarus ," which saves text written in comboxes as this, and searching therein (R. click, Recover Text) i found my reply, praise God, and so here it is, with some additions.

Please cite the verse that you believe makes it clear that one verse is what makes a doctrine to be a clear and present reality in the scripture.

Do you deny John 3:16?

No, yet this example refutes your premise, as this one verse by itself does not teach who and what this Son is, and what "believing" in Him means, and by itself would support demons being saved because they believe Christ is the Son of God.

But contrary your single text hermenutic, i see Jn. 1:1 teaches the Word (Christ: v. 14) is God, and Divine attributes and worship being ascribed to Him, (Heb. 1 etc.) and "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," (Matthew 28:19) and "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all," (2 Corinthians 13:14) as teaching a Divine unity of persons, and defining the one God who said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness," (Gn. 1:26).

So just as more than one verse is necessary to understand what Jn. 3:16 teaches, so more than one is what makes a doctrine to be a clear and present reality in the scripture.

For even an explicit text by itself does not necessarily establish a doctrine, as the totality of Scripture needs to be examined, and covenantal distinctions examined. This is why theology is necessary. Is lying always wrong? Was/is polygamy wrong? Would you support cannibalism as a normal consensual practice (you die first, we have you for dinner...).

I believe doctrine should be based on a body of scripture but where is the body of scripture establishing the Holy Spirit as a distinct divinity like God the Father and Christ?

That is easy, for as with the Deity of Christ, it is impossible that He be not Divine ) leaving one alternative, that He does not have personhood.

But first, what we do not find of course is texts showing worshiping the Holy Spirit and praying to Him, since the Spirit is the one who inspires both, but He points to the Head and the One whom He inspired in expressing the Head.

Yet He reveals His unity with the Father and the Son in such texts as Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14, and by worshiping the Father and the Son then one is worshiping the Spirit.

Moreover, perhaps no where is His deity and personhood more revealed than in the teaching that,

All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Here reverence of the Spirit is supremely required, and even in distinction from the Father and the Son.

Further as regards Deity, the aforementioned texts as Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 uniquely teach a unity of 3 persons, as constituting the "Lord," ("Now the Lord is that Spirit" (2Cor. 3:16).

In addition, in no place is any creative activity ascribed to any created being, yet,

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4)

By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (Psalms 33:6)

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalms 104:30)

Note that the word for "Spirit" is also that for "breath," and thus it can be argued that such terms as this ("oil" etc.) only refer to an instrument of God, yet the Son of God is also called by such, being the "arm" (Is. 53:1) by whom God made the worlds, (Heb. 1:2) and "lamb" (Jn. 1:29) etc. of God. But we understand the Son to be a Divine person as personhood is also clearly ascribed to Him.

And concerning both "arm" and "breath," we see in the OT in the context of "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" (Isaiah 40:18):

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. (Isaiah 40:10-11)

Thus the "arm" of the Lord is the part of God, and one who shall feed his flock like a shepherd, (Jn. 10), and next,

Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? (Isaiah 40:13-14)

Here the "breath" is understood as the Spirit as part of God, and we read in the NT:

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10-12)

It is hardly tenable to hold that the "breath" of God does this.

More can be shown as regards Divine attributes, but in addition are texts which speak of the Holy Spirit as being a person.

As seen above, rather than just being an instrumental appendage of God who cannot make decisions, the Spirit "searches" all things.

Also,

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

While like the Son, the Spirit always does the will of the Father, yet both have a will they exercise in doing so.

And as i am very exhausted, let me post from a web site for more:

Numerous verses say that the Holy Spirit spoke (Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:7; etc.). Oden observes that “the Spirit speaks in the first person as ‘I’; ‘It was I who sent them’ (Acts 10:20)…. ‘I have called them’ (Acts 13:2). None but a person can say ‘I’” (The Living God, p. 200).

2. Interaction: The Spirit may be lied to (Acts 5:3), which indicates that the Spirit may be spoken to. The Spirit may be tested (Acts 5:9), insulted (Hebrews 10:29) or blasphemed (Matthew 12:31), which implies personal status. Oden gathers additional evidence: “The apostolic testimony applied intensely personal analogies: guiding (Romans 8:14), convicting (John 16:8), interceding (Romans 8:26), calling (Acts 13:2), commissioning (Acts 20:28)…. Only a person can be vexed (Isaiah 63:10) or grieved (Ephesians 4:30)” (Life in the Spirit, p. 19).

3. Paraclete: Jesus called the Holy Spirit the parakletos — the Comforter, Advocate or Counselor. The Paraclete is active, teaching (John 14:26), testifying (15:26), convicting (16:8), guiding (16:13) and making truth known (16:14).

Jesus used the masculine form of parakletos; he did not consider it necessary to make the word neuter or to use neuter pronouns. In John 16:14, masculine pronouns are used even after the neuter pneuma is mentioned. It would have been easy to switch to neuter pronouns, but John did not. In other places, neuter pronouns are used for the Spirit, in accordance with grammatical convention. Scripture is not finicky about the grammatical gender of the Spirit, and we need not be either. We use personal pronouns for the Spirit to acknowledge that he is personal, not to imply that he is male. -http://www.gci.org/God/deityHS

That's all for now.

133 posted on 07/05/2014 6:14:48 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Concerning Jn 3:16, that’s fine. My approach is to first determine what we agree on and take it from there in search of differences. I'm running out of time and energy so will not continue searching for a point where our beliefs digress.

But contrary your single text hermenutic, i see Jn. 1:1 teaches the Word (Christ: v. 14) is God, and Divine attributes and worship being ascribed to Him, (Heb. 1 etc.) and "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," (Matthew 28:19)

In post #140, I commented on Mat 28:19 and will copy paste the snippet

“That is a powerful verse that places the Father, Son and Holy Spirit on the same level. However, scholars debate whether those are the exact words of Christ, or a paraphrase that was part of the original text reflecting baptismal practice of the church circa 80AD? Two reasons being: First, Matt 28:19 has no other scriptural parallel. Mark 16:15-18 bears closest resemblance but does not mention the threefold name. Secondly, If Christ commanded baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, why isn’t there a record of any Apostolic Fathers, or New Testament writer baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Instead, in the Acts of the Apostles baptism is in Christ’s name. Paul speaks of being baptized into Christ, or Christ Jesus but never the threefold name.”

and "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all," (2 Corinthians 13:14) as teaching a Divine unity of persons,

I agree the triadic formula is present but I don’t see where from 2 Cor 13:14 one can conclude the Holy Spirit is a diety. A created being yes. A created being of very high rank yes. Knowledge of John 1:1-2 makes clear that God and Christ are distinct yet the same but where is an equivalent to John 1:1-2 regarding the Holy Spirit?

and defining the one God who said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness," (Gn. 1:26).

Binitarianism will satisfy Gn 1:26

So just as more than one verse is necessary to understand what Jn. 3:16 teaches, so more than one is what makes a doctrine to be a clear and present reality in the scripture.

I agree. I just used Jn 3:16 as a starting point concerning salvation and how salvation relates to the Trinity.

But first, what we do not find of course is texts showing worshiping the Holy Spirit and praying to Him, since the Spirit is the one who inspires both, but He points to the Head and the One whom He inspired in expressing the Head. Yet He reveals His unity with the Father and the Son in such texts as Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14, and by worshiping the Father and the Son then one is worshiping the Spirit.

You just validated part of my point that scripture isn’t as clear about the Trinity as many grew up believing it to be. If the three are co-equals, why are only two given divine titles, worshiped and prayed to but not the third member?

Moreover, perhaps no where is His deity and personhood more revealed than in the teaching that,

All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

One can certainly infer a divine status from that. However, could a person be condemned to hell as some here believe if a person viewed the Holy Spirit as merely an agent of God and that blasphemy against God’s agent was regarded as blasphemy against God?

I would like to continue but my brain needs a break and I have some chores to do around the house. I appreciate all that you have written and will be happy to address the remainder of your post as part of our discussion but for the moment, I need a break.

142 posted on 07/05/2014 12:59:08 PM PDT by fso301
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