Posted on 08/24/2014 3:18:46 AM PDT by markomalley
Obviously I’m not needed in this thread, for you guys are handling things easily without me...
"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success
unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -
- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
Luke 1:48
...For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
Of course; a bunch of her groupies has done a LOT more than this!
You seem to agree with this fellow a lot!
How about Saint Augustine??
Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
• Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
• Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
• Augustine, in “Retractions,”
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
And some 'popes' were more adulterers than others, too.
What's your point?
Now HERE's a fella that MUST like St. Augustine!!
YUP!
Likes him!!!
HE does??
Mark 10:35-45
35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” 36And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” 37And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” 38Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, 40but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” 41And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. 42And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,d 44and whoever would be first among you must be slavee of all. 45For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
In this passage; Jesus states that LEADERSHIP is NOT His to confer; but Catholic teaching says that Jesus DOES grant it to Peter.
(Oh, yeah... HE says something about SLAVERY, too.)
HMMMmmm...
Wrong. That are statements backed by substantiation, and which also reveals the interpretation that RCs must and so engage in, which was the point.
And it is not my job to do a darn thing,
Other RCs would disagree, and Canon 229 §1 wants you to be educated so as to be able to defend the faith when necessary. Of course, at times before that all lay persons were forbidden any to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic theological Faith.
if you are going to spout about Catholic Doctrine, you should state I am not a Catholic expert and am only making at best and educated guess as to what it means.
You first, since i am not presuming that i am right because my church is right, as per RCs, but appeal to Scripture and evidence as needed. What is your basis for assurance of Truth, or is an infallible magisterium essential to know what Scripture is and means, so that those who disagree are in rebellion to God?
It is more your job to try to represent Catholic Doctrine accurately if you are going to constantly post about it.
Indeed.
Unlike you, I don’t have the hubris to think I am an expert in Protestant(s) theology whereas you think you are an expert at Catholic Doctrine.
Unlike you, i did not misrepresent you as claiming to be an expert, nor myself, but as one who appeals to evidence a needed, which often educates RCs. After all, RCs themselves often lament how poorly catechized RCs can be.
It is quite clear what are non-negotiable teachings of the faith.
We have been thru this before.
Gradually, the Church reflected on the fact that Christ himself in essence destroyed slavery
It was inconsistent, and left to Rome it likely would have continued. Not that Prots were consistent either, but evangelicals were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.
And Biblical slavery is better than a welfare mentality, but this is another subject. The point was the confusion about it that continued for centuries, as with more substantial issues like torture.
But Hebrews, 1 and 2 Peter and James are not mentioned in the fragment, nor perhaps 3 John.
and was part of the Church at Rome’s Tradition
Which does not make the church today to be that of the NT church. It manifestly is not.
by 140AD, the Church of Rome had a Single Leader as Bishop. This would be consistent with NT practice itself as the Acts of the Apostles clearly state that James was the “Leader of the Church of Jerusalem”.
Typical RC polemical extrapolation. Having a local pastor of a church in a city, in which there was only one church therein, while other churches also has pastrors, does not translate into a single pastor being over all the churches from the beginning. All you can do is show it took 9 "successors" of St. Peter, who is extraScripturally alleged to have been the overseer of the church at Rome, for for a single overseer a with monarchial powers over the whole Church to arise,
And rather than it simply being that the evidence is not there definitely, among many others, Catholic theologian and priest Francis Sullivan, in his work From Apostles to Bishops (New York: The Newman Press), concludes that “the episcopate [development of bishops] is a the fruit of a post New Testament development,”
I stand with the majority of scholars who agree that one does not find evidence in the New Testament to support the theory that the apostles or their coworkers left [just] one person as “bishop” in charge of each local church...
As the reader will recall, I have expressed agreement with the consensus of scholars that available evidence indicates that the church of Rome was led by a college of presbyters, rather than a single bishop, for at least several decades of the second century... Francis Sullivan, in his work From Apostles to Bishops , pp. 221,22
But all of which avoids the issue that it is the NT church in Scripture that is definitive, and manifestly did not look to a leader in Rome as its supreme exalted infallible head, and overall is in the most critical contrast to that of Rome.
But Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, while Peter is the apostle to the Jews.
It's stated MANY times in the God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture.
Or perhaps you are going to tell us that Paul was wrong?
Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
Acts 13:46-48 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 14:27 And when they (Paul and Barnabas) arrived and gathered the church together, they declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.
Acts 15:22-26 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 22:19-21 And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Acts 23:11 The following night the Lord stood by him (Paul) and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.”
Acts 26:12-18 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles— to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 11:13-14 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
Romans 15:15-21 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation, but as it is written, “Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand.”
Galatians 1:15-17 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Galatians 2:1-2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.
Galatians 2:7-9 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Ephesians 3:1-3 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
Ephesians 3:7-8 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,....
1 Timothy 2:5-7 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle ( I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2 Timothy 4:17 But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion's mouth.
See post 76 and here’s a link to the word *petra* in the Greek with all the verses that it’s found in. Read it for yourself.
*petra*
http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4073.htm
I’ve presented the facts, but can’t make you recognize or accept them.
LOL. Says Elsie after spamming the thread with his/her posts.
God changed the names of other people in Scripture as He wanted, when He did a great work in their lives.
But to claim that Catholic know the reason for that is hubris.
Building a church on a man, instead of God, is a recipe for failure.
Jesus is the cornerstone. Y’all can trust men if y’all want to and like, but I’ll continue to build my faith on Jesus, the author and perfecter of my faith.
Being Catholic, I am not at all familiar with the bible, so I can’t offhand cite the scripture where Jesus called himself ‘the rock’. I do know that He did call Peter the rock on which he would build his church.
You have been provided with links to help you understand it better.
Perhaps you should read those and study it more and then come back.
As a Catholic, I was not familiar with the Bible at all. I don't know that we even had one in the house. All the Scripture I had heard until that point what the limited amount I heard in mass.
When I got saved, I went out and bought a Bible and began to read it myself.
If you feel inadequate in your knowledge of Scripture, grab a Bible and read it yourself. There are also a lot of sources online for reading it as well and they are free.
But don't argue from a position of ignorance. It doesn't work.
But we WANT you here.
Your posts add so much color to any discussion.
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