Posted on 09/04/2014 1:39:19 AM PDT by markomalley
He’s an atheist. Well - more agnostic now.
Yet I’ll back his conscience against anyone. I know he hears God. We were out on an operation and he heard “drop” clear as day. None of us said it.
Seriously, I don’t know. I love this guy. He’s had my back for years.
First of all, a commandment to "forgive" has no bearing on this. You're only obligated to forgive your friend if he wrongs you in some way. That's not the case here, is it?
Secondly, let's look at this differently. What if your friend was a drug abuser or alcoholic? Would you be "protective" of his lifestyle choices in that case -- even to the point of telling him that it's perfectly acceptable and normal for him to live in a constant state of intoxication or under the influence of narcotics? In addiction recovery there's a term for people who allow their friends or family members to live in a state of distress like this. It's called an enabler, and it's actually one of the most destructive influences in an addict's life.
Excuse me for butting in (but your original comment was directed toward me).
First of all, you are not consigning your very good friend to hell. His own actions are doing that.
If he is your very good friend, I would think that you want what is ultimately the best for him: and that would be for him to spend eternity in heaven. If he is sodomizing his same-sex partner on a regular basis (or is being sodomized...or both), you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that heaven will not be his ultimate destination.
A suggestion for you:
Homosexuals, virtually always, want to have full acceptance and approval of their perversion...almost like they have an innate need for you to give them permission to do as they do.
I'm not suggesting that you reject him as a friend. But when the topic comes up, don't give him your permission. For example:
Chances are you don't need to quote Scripture to them on the issue: I would wager 99.999999999% that they already know that their behavior is condemned. And I don't care if he/they are atheists or not. The Natural Law is what it is, no matter how much atheists want to ignore it.
The biggest thing is to be a light in the darkness to them. Don't condone, don't accept, don't permit. It is very possible to do that while not condemning the person.
Dolan is a coward and a disgrace.
Time for you to have his back ... He's saved your earthly life. Why not see if you can use that earthly life to save his eternal life?
Cardinal Dolan is considered the leader of the Catholic Church in the US. Needless to say he has been a huge disappointment. He hasn’t spoken out loudly against abortion or the gay lifestyle. To top it off, in’15 he intends to be the Grand Marshall of the St. Pat’s parade, which for the first time will have a contingent of gays marching. He continues to give communion to politicians who preach for abortion and gays. He continues to buddy up with RAT politicians without taking them to the woodshed. He’s nothing more than a pasta & adult drink loving blowhard.
The question, then, is, "Do these events do good in the world?"
Does the Al Smith Dinner do good? As I understand it, the ostensible point is the cultivation of rich benefactors for good works. However, to what extent do these potential good works really occur, and (on the other hand) to what extent does the scandal of displays of bonhomie with Death Eaters discourage the faith and good works of others?
Again, does the St. Patrick's Day parade do good in the world? What are the costs vs. the benefits, both in monetary terms to the city, and in pleasant-socialization vs. drunkenness and other harms? On the specific issue of homosexual groups' participation, does the celebration of homosexuality - an objectively dangerous lifestyle, regardless of moral concerns - do good in the world?
I say AMEN! Monsignor Pope! I have been bothered by this hijacking of St. Patrick’s day for a long time. In Ireland it is a religious holiday! Go to Mass and pray instead of the stupid parades!
If St. Patrick were to actually show up, it would be with what's needful for a stern and terrifying exorcism, to give them the same treatment he gave Satan, the wizards, and the snakes.
“...recently settled down happily with his partner - who is a man in every sense of the word.”
No he is not.
You appear confused, on several levels.
You place great weight on your personal feelings dismissing the word of God.
You cite judgment as the bailiwick of God (apparently as a way of precluding men from moral conclusions) and then you ask that YOU must consign a friend to hell.
If your left hand offends you cut it off.
Nobody is against a man loving a man --- we're all supposed to love our fellow man, am I right? --- what's objected to is the directing of the erotic drive to another man, with all that entails: perverse fantasies, perverse indecencies, perverse sex acts.
It's not your business to surveil them, either, to determine just what it is they're doing under the sheets. That's not for you to knw. But if they identify as "gay," it's a disturbing likelhood they identify with that
Pray fo all such people. Really pray. Down on your knees. We should all be praying hard.
Dolan’s approval of the gay Organization in the Parade reminds me of when Ted Kennedy sold out on abortion.He had the media on his side for the rest of his life.A big plus for Dolan’s legacy.
TOTALLY AGREE!!!
This decision is completely contrary to THE St. Patrick’s Day parade, the purpose of which was and is for Irish Catholics to march publicly up the principal avenue of the nation’s largest city as a testimony to their having remained Catholic despite violent oppostion in their ancestral land and their adoptive home. Now, it’s another Gay Pride/Halloween/Debased Easter Parade with the focus beinng flouting traditional mores, our formerly Christian culture, plain good manners, but most importantly, the dictates of the Catholic Church. The World won. I wonder what They had on the AOH to wrest this victory from them.
Why is Irish or Irish Catholic Pride more acceptable than other people’s pride to a Holy Heavenly Father?
Doesn’t scripture say pride comes before destruction?
Gay pride, black pride, Irish pride, ‘fill in any ethnic or national’ pride, sports team pride, man made holy day pride...
The let’s have a parade crowd to celebrate ‘us’ is not a bible reading or living group...
Amen!
A 1993 article in the New York Times may contradict Cardinal Dolan's assertion. “The Hibernians and Cardinal O'Connor have said there is no place for a gay contingent in the parade because it is a Catholic event and the church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful.”
Also, reviewing the parade that year, Cardinal O’Connor was quoted in the New York Times saying political correctness “was not worth one comma in the Apostles' Creed.” The Cardinal also said he "'could never even be perceived as compromising Catholic teaching' by entertaining their admission as an identifiable group in the city's 232d parade up Manhattan's showcase avenue in honor of St. Patrick.”
We need another Cardinal O'Connor as Archbishop of New York, not someone who caves to the evils of the world and fights against traditional Catholics.
Dolan’s word leave a sour taste in my mouth. He needs to stay out of the parade as a testament to his unity to the Catholic faith. His appearance will be taken as an endorsement of deviant sexual lifestyles.
I could not agree with you more.Dolan is slapping Cardinal O’Connor in the face.Cardinal O’Connor had the courage to stand up to the gays that desecrated the Eucharist and St. Patrick’s Cathedral.
“I’d like your opinion.”
Okay.
“Makes it hard for me to be fair.”
Why would you want to be fair if it meant eternity in Hell for both you and your friend? And how could you know you were being fair, since “The attempt to make God just in the eyes of sinful men will always lead to error.”? (William L. Brown)
Further, if you were a homosexual, would you rather that people tried to help you lead a life of pickle-smooching and fudge-packing, if that meant they abandoned you to Hell, or that they tried to save you?
“I’m going to consign a very good friend to hell?”
How are you going to do that? Has God empowered you to decide the fate of souls? Telling someone to “come in off that ledge” is not the same as sending them out there in the first place, nor is it pushing them off the ledge.
However they got out on that ledge, the kind thing to do is to talk them back inside.
“Yet - are we not commanded to forgive?”
...dimitte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dimíttimus debitoribus nostris... (...forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...)
We are not, however, commanded to approve of sin, or to pretend approval of sin. (Do you really approve of sodomy, or do you just pretend to?) And we are definitely not commanded to encourage others in sin, or to pretend that sin is acceptable behavior.
I believe we are to love the sinner but hate the sin. Does your friend know that you hate his sin and grieve that he is sending himself to Hell? Wouldn’t you want to know, if the tables were turned?
“I’ve got too much to atone for to worry about other people’s sins just yet. Get back to me in 2050 :P”
That is what, in the 1960s, we used to call a cop out. Of course we all have to worry about our own sins and our own souls. That goes without saying. However, if you cannot spare a few minutes to speak honestly and lovingly to your friend, in what sense is he your friend?
Do you think that Our Lord, at your own final judgment, may ask you what you did to try and save your friends who flaunted their mortal sin before you? Because I am dreading the questions He will ask of me.
“He is the judge.”
Yes, and he is certainly not so unjust as to hold us responsible for our sins without having given us the powers of discernment needed to decide whether to follow Him or not.
“He gave us a rather long users manual, which most people never read.”
How tragic that you are right. But whose fault is that?
“...one of my oldest friends...recently settled down happily with his partner - who is a man...”
Firstly, they are not happy, no matter how they protest. Sodomites as a group are miserable. Oh, sure, they have short periods during which the gratification of their unnatural lust makes them think they are happy, but this never lasts. It can’t, because that happiness is illusory.
“Just happen to be incredibly protective of the people I love.”
Then how can you stand by with an approving grin while they bugger each other right through the gates of Hell?
“And yes, I love him”
Are you acting like it?
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