I agree. Can we come to a further understanding that healing isn't just physical but spiritual? And if we agree on that, can we go one step further and agree that Christ as our Savior who wants all of us to be with Him instituted means for us to attain that oneness with him (which also provides spiritual healing) in ways we could describe as miraculous? In other words, the sacraments such as the Eucharist and Confession?
Depends upon what you call 'hocus-pocus (at it's root, a magi's term, so no)'. As for all the chanting, and incense and jangly-bits, and whatnot... incantations and such, I surely don't see the need for all that.
To be more specific, I'm referring to this pagan babylonian goddess nonsense and the "hocus pocus" attitude towards the Eucharist. Where a protestant can chant the "magical" words of, "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" and they are saved, a miracle, but deny the same to the Eucharist and castigate it as some sort of medieval chant. Not to mention all of the other instances in which the protestants confuses correlation for causation and like some conspiracy theorist starts connecting dots, "Well the Catholic Church does this, and because so-and-so did this back in the day, there's some connection and its all interconnected." It's the "Who killed JFK" game, only done on a grand historical scale.
I understand you may not see the need, but are you aware that is just an expression of your own personal preference and has little bearing on what is true? Assuming that was the case, that we are all graduates of the J.S. Mill school of utilitarianism, that utility is the determiner of truth, then we can can eliminate rock concert and stadium worship and all manner of protestant expression of their faith as extraneous. No more WWJD bracelets, no more t-shirts with witty sayings adoped from secular advertising campaigns?
Or, we can say, since Christ has both a divine and a human nature understands the necessity of engaging humanity not only on a spiritual level but a physical one as well? And to join the two with Christ the sacraments where instituted? After all, we're not angels. We're not pure spirit. But try telling that to the iconoclastic protestant who is attempting to forsake their humanity for a pure spiritual existence and in their arrogance boasts that they're better than everyone else because of their transcendence. Maybe I need those stained glass windows. Maybe I need that rosary and that gregorian chant. Who is a protestant to deny those to me? If that makes me a weak Christian then so be it. That's why the argument is made that protestantism is inherently gnostic. A perfect faith for a perfect people. Very Nietzschean.
Nowwaitaminnit... Wasn't it you that made the claim that Protestants 'reject the mystical and the miraculous'? That their basis is merely secular? Wouldn't that be you doing the "Jesus for me, but not for thee" schtick?
Yes it was and yes they do. I just find it ironic that they'll accept the miraculous on their behalf but then turn around and act like uber-rationalists when it comes to the miracles of the Catholic Church and I don't think anyone can deny that is a characteristic they share with today's modern atheists. But that isn't to say they can't find Christ in their way, however imperfectly.
Absolutely, and more so.
And if we agree on that, can we go one step further and agree that Christ as our Savior who wants all of us to be with Him instituted means for us to attain that oneness with him (which also provides spiritual healing) in ways we could describe as miraculous?
Absolutely Sommore!
In other words, the sacraments such as the Eucharist and Confession?
Well, I don't have those, yet here I stand. What I do have is what Yeshua promised - The indwelling Spirit. That seems to be more than enough.
To be more specific, I'm referring to this pagan babylonian goddess nonsense and the "hocus pocus" attitude towards the Eucharist.
Ahh, Well, I hate to disappoint you, but I am more 'there' than anyone you are likely to meet. 'He who cannot even be named here' has nothing on me.
Where a protestant can chant the "magical" words of, "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" and they are saved, a miracle, but deny the same to the Eucharist and castigate it as some sort of medieval chant.
Well, that's pretty much where I am...
Not to mention all of the other instances in which the protestants confuses correlation for causation and like some conspiracy theorist starts connecting dots, "Well the Catholic Church does this, and because so-and-so did this back in the day, there's some connection and its all interconnected." It's the "Who killed JFK" game, only done on a grand historical scale.
Yeah, I am one of those... All the way back to Nimrod... Historically, it is easy to see... So I probably remain as virulently against what you believe as anybody...
I understand you may not see the need, but are you aware that is just an expression of your own personal preference and has little bearing on what is true?
Yes, I can see that. Can you?
Assuming that was the case, that we are all graduates of the J.S. Mill school of utilitarianism, that utility is the determiner of truth, then we can can eliminate rock concert and stadium worship and all manner of protestant expression of their faith as extraneous. No more WWJD bracelets, no more t-shirts with witty sayings adoped from secular advertising campaigns?
OK.
Or, we can say, since Christ has both a divine and a human nature understands the necessity of engaging humanity not only on a spiritual level but a physical one as well?
Sure, we can say that.
And to join the two with Christ the sacraments where instituted?
Nah - I think that to be a function of the Spirit.
[...] try telling that to the iconoclastic protestant who is attempting to forsake their humanity for a pure spiritual existence and in their arrogance boasts that they're better than everyone else because of their transcendence.
That's hardly the case. And again, I am probably the poster child for 'iconoclast'.
Maybe I need those stained glass windows. Maybe I need that rosary and that gregorian chant. Who is a protestant to deny those to me? If that makes me a weak Christian then so be it.
I have no problem with that - It is your insistence that I must necessarily have that too, or my faith is made somehow 'imperfect'.
That's why the argument is made that protestantism is inherently gnostic. A perfect faith for a perfect people. Very Nietzschean.
I'll take that on = I am quite versed in gnosticism,and I would say you have that backwards. I see much of gnosticism in the Roman church.
Yes it was and yes they do. I just find it ironic that they'll accept the miraculous on their behalf but then turn around and act like uber-rationalists when it comes to the miracles of the Catholic Church and I don't think anyone can deny that is a characteristic they share with today's modern atheists.
Miracles, to be believed, require evidence, else what use are they? To claim such that no one can see is an abuse of the term.
But that isn't to say they can't find Christ in their way, however imperfectly.
Well, it seems to be working for us, so again, I ponder what all the rest of it is for.
To be more specific, I’m referring to this pagan babylonian goddess nonsense and the “hocus pocus” attitude towards the Eucharist. Where a protestant can chant the “magical” words of, “I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior” and they are saved, a miracle, but deny the same to the Eucharist and castigate it as some sort of medieval chant.
You mean like saying five “Our Fathers” and five “Hail Mary’s” to be forgiven?
I grew up in a Catholic household. I remember the rituals. I also remember the Priest placing the crown of flowers on a statue. The Romans did practiced similar activities in the Pantheon. But I guess your identical practices aren’t pagan worship. Is that what you’re claiming?
Funny thing is, it's the priest who mutters the *magical words* and claims to have the power to turn a piece of wheat into the literal body and blood of Christ.
I find it extremely ironic, and hypocritical, to castigate non-Catholics for the very things not only Catholicism teaches and does, but brags on.