The Rise of the Papacy

Ligonier Ministries ^ | David Wells

[boatbums]

I mean, I do understand the male ego often has trouble when shown up by a woman. I guess I can understand then the desire to be a chauvinist and use Scripture to manipulate the desired behavior out of woman. But that’s not the purpose of Scripture, to use it to coerce a desired behavior out of someone.

You are exactly right! It is the insecure and weak man who insist Paul's specific teaching about women applies completely to all circumstances. Women in the first century did not have the same access to education as women do today, nor did they have the same rights within society. The husband is supposed to be the leader in his home - spiritually as well as physically.

What Paul said - and which some men seldom mention - is that a woman should not usurp the man's place of authority by being his pastor/leader. But, what if a woman is not usurping that role but is accepted by men and women in the role of teacher to them? Should a modern man not tolerate any woman in any teacher role? Didn't most of us have women teachers in school? Didn't most of us have a mother who "ruled" us as children? Times have changed and women are not seen in the same way as they were thousands of years ago. We may even see a woman president some day soon - though I pray to God it is never Hillary. Only in very backward countries (i.e., Arab) are women still considered inferior to men. For Christians, that should NOT be so. There is neither male nor female in Christ.

I would hope enlightened men would recognize the value women have in the Christian community and admit, even, that some have a lot to teach them.

[af_vet_1981]

Even this one ?

Of course; to whom are you directing a curse ?

[CynicalBear]

>>So therefore you reject the commandment, because you think you are not an assembly of like minded ?<<<p<

Surely you don’t think everyone here at FR is like minded and thus should be considered a “church” do you?

[af_vet_1981]

Surely you don’t think everyone here at FR is like minded and thus should be considered a “church” do you?

Hard to tell since so many are reluctant to identify their sects with a name; could be a lot of cults infected by heresies. Do you reject the Scriptures and embrace feminism ? It's a recent movement amongst many sects and denominations.

[CynicalBear]

>>Of course;<<

Then please show where the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.

>>to whom are you directing a curse?<<

I don't direct curses.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

You sound postively Islamic!

Along with remaining silent OUTSIDE OF CHURCH ON A WEBSITE would you like metmom to wear a burkha and walk five paces behind her husband?

[CynicalBear]

See post 1871

[metmom]

If I had my way, all the Gentiles would listen to, and obey, the Apostle Paul.

And it's a good thing you DON'T have your way.

What about obeying JESUS, when He said not to call any religious leader on earth *Father*?

I see the markings of a major league control freak. Trying to put women in submission to anyone or anything, and expressing a desire to control all non-Jewish people.

[metmom]

Probably.

Men who feel threatened and insecure in their manhood do like to control others, especially women. Then the women are no threat to their ego.

[Religion Moderator]

Do not make the discussion "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

Thank you for the heads up. I’m sorry for my boorish behavior.

[af_vet_1981]

See post 1871

Not enough information to judge whether it is a bona fide Christian denomination/church or a cult; if someone walked up to the door and refused to identify their denomination, I would assume they had something to hide and it was likely a cult.

[CynicalBear]

I’m not surprised you didn’t recognize it.

[af_vet_1981]

I’m not surprised you didn’t recognize it.

Me either, that would be like expecting someone to know my name when I refused to give it to them.

You posted Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. I posted two other scripture portions Paul wrote:

1. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
2. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1. Do they believe and obey these "commandments of the Lord" given through Paul in your church or are they disobedient ?
2. Does the curse you quoted apply to those who reject Paul's writings or do they think the scriptures are just guidelines and their church has entered a new era of feminist Christianity ?

Liberal churches have certainly embraced feminism; many of their female ministers are Lesbian; some/many? Of the male ministers are homosexual or pro-homosexual. Catholics certainly face the same pressures, as this is a wave in the culture. Paul was adamant that women not teach men; that it was a source of heresy, and against the commandment of the Lord. It could be because men are weak when it comes to women; eager to please and easily seduced. In any case, it is forbidden for genuine believers.

[CynicalBear]

Please show where the apostles taught the concept of denominations.

[metmom]

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

A command.

By JESUS.

[af_vet_1981]

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. A command. By JESUS.

Which literally says, in the translation given in that comment, not to call any man "my father" (ie., "your father"). As I have already posted, there is one Biblical example of this, When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” He said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. Elisha saw it and cried out, “My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces. He also took up the mantle of Elijah that fell from him and returned and stood by the bank of the Jordan. He took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him and struck the waters and said, “Where is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” And when he also had struck the waters, they were divided here and there; and Elisha crossed over.

Elisha called Elijah "my father" instead of God. Lest someone misunderstand, and try to teach this was a sin of great import, or a sin at all, and speak against Elisha, look what happened, a miracle with dividing the water. Now look again at what happened to those who mocked Elisha. Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. He went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

Now, let's move on to the matter of a woman teaching a man, which Paul not only forbade, but appealed to his audience's knowledge that it was against the law and against the commandment of the Lord, referring no doubt to the LORD Jesus Christ.

1. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
2. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Without a doubt, the feminist and liberal progressive object and do whatsoever they please, but there are consequences. The Biblical example of this violation is Jezebel of Thyatira, given to us by the Lord himself, for those who refused to acknowledge the express warning of the commandment just listed. The words are severe. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

There are other examples in history where women have usurped the authority given to men, reversed their role so to speak, and other Protestant denominations/sects that also despise Catholics call them out.

True feminine godliness is shown by women who love God, submit to their own husbands in the Lord, nurture their families, and obey his commandments, not publicly putting his name to shame with contentiousness and rebellion against the Biblical roles He chose for men and women, as clearly laid out by his chosen vessel, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

[metmom]

A command by Jesus.

I don’t see the reason of *other people did it, too* as something God will accept for a valid excuse for us to sin.

David committed adultery and murder. Does that mean it’s OK for anyone else to do it, too?

[af_vet_1981]

A command by Jesus. I don’t see the reason of *other people did it, too* as something God will accept for a valid excuse for us to sin. David committed adultery and murder. Does that mean it’s OK for anyone else to do it, too?

I find it incongruent to liken what Elisha called Elijah to that which David did to Uriah and Bathsheba. I would think it dissonant to imagine that the Apostles James, John, and Paul were in error on either the use of "father," "master," or the role of women in the faith.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

[af_vet_1981]

Please show where the apostles taught the concept of denominations.

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.