THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[Elsie]

Many atheistic scientists who have studied the Shroud of Turin have converted.

TO what?

[Elsie]

To date, I have not seen an argument as to why the woman of Rev. 12 is Israel to the exclusion of Mary.

Then you manage to read these thread with your eyes SHUT!

[Elsie]

You were shown that the woman is Israel.

What's that thing about leading a horse to water...?

[Elsie]

Where was I shown the woman was Israel and cannot be both Mary and Israel?

I'm quite sure that ROME teaches it is either one or the other.

[Elsie]

Never mind that scores of eminent theologians, saints and martyrs, down the centuries ...

Appeal to authority.

---

Logical fallacies hide the truth, so pointing them out is very useful.

 

1. Ad Hominem - Attacking the individual instead of the argument.
Example: You are so stupid your argument couldn't possibly be true.
Example: I figured that you couldn't possibly get it right, so I ignored your comment.

 

2. Appeal to Force - Telling the hearer that something bad will happen to him if he does not accept the argument.
Example: If you don't want to get beaten up, you will agree with what I say.
Example: Convert or die.
 
3. Appeal to Pity - Urging the hearer to accept the argument based upon an appeal to emotions, sympathy, etc.
Example: You owe me big time because I really stuck my neck out for you.
Example: Oh come on, I've been sick. That's why I missed the deadline.

 

4. Appeal to the Popular - Urging the hearer to accept a position because a majority of people hold to it.
Example: The majority of people like soda. Therefore, soda is good.
Example: Everyone else is doing it. Why shouldn't you?

 

5. Appeal to Tradition - Trying to get someone to accept something because it has been done or believed for a long time.
Example: This is the way we've always done it. Therefore, it is the right way.
Example: The Catholic church's tradition demonstrates that this doctrine is true.
 
6. Begging the Question - Assuming the thing to be true that you are trying to prove. It is circular.
Example: God exists because the Bible says so. The Bible is inspired. Therefore, we know that God exists.
Example: I am a good worker because Frank says so. How can we trust Frank? Simple: I will vouch for him.

 

7. Cause and Effect - Assuming that the effect is related to a cause because the events occur together.
Example: When the rooster crows, the sun rises. Therefore, the rooster causes the sun to rise.
Example: When the fuel light goes on in my car, I soon run out of gas. Therefore, the fuel light causes my car to run out of gas.
 
8. Circular Argument - See Begging the Question
Fallacy of Division - Assuming that what is true of the whole is true for the parts.
Example: That car is blue. Therefore, its engine is blue.
Example: Your family is weird. That means that you are weird too.

 

9. Fallacy of Equivocation - Using the same term in an argument in different places but the word has different meanings.
Example: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Therefore, a bird is worth more than President Bush.
Example: Evolution states that one species can change into another. We see that cars have evolved into different styles. Therefore, since evolution is a fact in cars, it is true in species.

 

10. False Dilemma - Giving two choices when in actuality there could be more choices possible.
Example: You either did knock the glass over or you did not. Which is it? (Someone else could have knocked the glass over)
Example: Do you still beat your wife?

 

11. Genetic Fallacy - Attempting to endorse or disqualify a claim because of the origin or irrelevant history of the claim.
Example: The Nazi regime developed the Volkswagen Beetle. Therefore, you should not buy a VW Beetle because of who started it.
Example: Frank just got out of jail last year; since it was his idea to start the hardware store, I can't trust him.

 

12. Guilt by Association - Rejecting an argument or claim because the person proposing it likes someone whom is disliked by another.
Example: Hitler liked dogs. Therefore dogs are bad.
Example: Your friend is a thief. Therefore, I cannot trust you.

 

13. Non Sequitur - Comments or information that do not logically follow from a premise or the conclusion.
Example: We know why it rained today: because I washed my car.
Example: I don't care what you say. We don't need any more bookshelves. As long as the carpet is clean, we are fine.

 

14. Poisoning the Well - Presenting negative information about a person before he/she speaks so as to discredit the person's argument.
Example: Frank is pompous, arrogant, and thinks he knows everything. So, let's hear what Frank has to say about the subject.
Example: Don't listen to him because he is a loser.

 

15. Red Herring - Introducing a topic not related to the subject at hand.
Example: I know your car isn't working right. But, if you had gone to the store one day earlier, you'd not be having problems.
Example: I know I forgot to deposit the check into the bank yesterday. But, nothing I do pleases you.

 

16. Special Pleading (double standard) - Applying a standard to another that is different from a standard applied to oneself.
Example: You can't possibly understand menopause because you are a man.
Example: Those rules don't apply to me since I am older than you.

 

17. Straw Man Argument - Producing an argument about a weaker representation of the truth and attacking it.
Example: The government doesn't take care of the poor because it doesn't have a tax specifically to support the poor.
Example: We know that evolution is false because we did not evolve from monkeys.

 

18. Category Mistake - Attributing a property to something that could not possibly have that property. Attributing facts of one kind are attributed to another kind. Attributing to one category that which can only be properly attributed to another.

Example: Blue sleeps faster than Wednesday.
Example: Saying logic is transcendental is like saying cars would exist if matter didn't.

[Elsie]

You are now Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church....

It appears that you have jumped into this thread WAY late!

[Elsie]

(Works well as a Trix jingle).

Don't give narses any ideas!

[ronnietherocket3]

They treat the Bible as if it suddenly fell from the skies and if like some miasma they ordered themselves together by chapter and verse. Note, how these folks sidestep the earlier absurdities of their denial of Petrine authority.

In the 2 yrs I attended a protestant worship group, it always seemed empty of anything. I tried a few others, but they too were empty. The only thing to it was praise Jesus, never any transform your life for the Sake of the kingdom of God. It also lacked a sense of history. Nothing connected me to much in the 2000 years of Christianity (or 4000 if you go back to Abraham). A very narrow and specific problem with this lack of a sense of history is that if one bases oneself on the Bible alone, one needs a copy of the Bible. However, prior to the printing press, Bibles had to be hand-copied.

I think the introduction of verse numbers was a mistake. Chapters are fine because some books are long and one needs to find something quickly, but verses make it really easy to take a single snippet and ignore everything around it. Ultimately, this has lead to everyone is his own infallible Magisterium and as long as we don't step on each others toes too much we can all get along.

[ronnietherocket3]

I'm quite sure that ROME teaches it is either one or the other.

Can you show me where?

[ronnietherocket3]

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them,

The "us" refers to the Jews; the "them" refers to the gentiles. What is interesting about the passage as a whole is that after Peter speaks, everyone falls in line.

[ronnietherocket3]

Then you manage to read these thread with your eyes SHUT!

The argument appears to be that Israel gave birth to Jesus and the other children refer to one of the two groups of 144,000. How this connection is made, I don't know. It also appears to ignore another group of men.

[Steelfish]

Hmm. Wonder how and why those God-fearing Protestant theologians after years of student and scholarship converted to Catholicism as a way of hiding the truth?

[Elsie]

Can you show me where?

No; but I'll bet our FR catholics can!

[Elsie]

Wonder no more!

Mary's requests to her Son finally got thru!!

[Steelfish]

Try some serious reading for a change.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2012/03/books-by-dave-armstrong-biblical-proofs.html

[boatbums]

The argument appears to be petra cannot refer to Peter because petra is feminine and petros is masculine. However, later the feminine noun is linked to a masculine Character (Christ). This is a contradiction. Petra clearly can be used in connection with a Male.

No, that's not the argument. Simon was called Peter (Petros in Greek) by Jesus - He used it for his NAME. Jesus, on the other hand, is THE rock (petra in Greek) upon which Christ's church would be built. Petra is the ROCK, Petros is a stone or a piece of the rock. That's why the Greek language of Matthew used two distinct Greek words in that passage. It was, in a way, a play on words - Jesus was famous for such things. Jesus was never NAMED or called "petra". It was only used to refer to what He was - the ROCK.

[Elsie]

Sorry.

I’ve no desire to chase rabbits down their holes.

[Elsie]

Try some serious reading for a change.

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.

— John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

[metmom]

In the 2 yrs I attended a protestant worship group, it always seemed empty of anything. I tried a few others, but they too were empty. The only thing to it was praise Jesus, never any transform your life for the Sake of the kingdom of God.

What a shame. The only thing in it was praise to Jesus.

They sure were remiss about what Christianity was all about, weren't they?

The Holy Spirit is the One who transforms our lives.

It also lacked a sense of history. Nothing connected me to much in the 2000 years of Christianity (or 4000 if you go back to Abraham). A very narrow and specific problem with this lack of a sense of history is that if one bases oneself on the Bible alone, one needs a copy of the Bible.

Except Scripture that was written 2,000 to 4,000 years ago.

[CynicalBear]

What’s interesting is that it’s obvious that James was the final “authority” in that assembly.