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To: ronnietherocket3
Earlier I posted the following:

Thanks for at least including the fact that the 'woman' is, indeed, Israel.

1,146 posted on 09/30/2014 4:16:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie; Steelfish; boatbums; NYer; narses; Salvation; editor-surveyor; CynicalBear
Thanks for at least including the fact that the 'woman' is, indeed, Israel.

If you read the entirety of what I wrote (which I have copied below), you will see I came to the conclusion that the woman is NOT Israel.

Earlier I posted the following:
The description that the woman will bear a son destined to rule all nations. I can think of two women who can claim this Israel and Mary. However, Rev 12 describes the devil as trying to sweep her away with the flood. The flood did not touch the woman. The flood could kill the woman by drowning her in sin (sin is the mechanism by which the devil cuts us off from God). However the flood (sin) does not touch the woman. It likely is not Israel as well read Hosea. However, thank you for the Immaculate Conception.

and:
The claim that Mary has other children does not disprove the Perpetual Virginity. It is the Catholic position that she is the Mother of all Christians. What would either disprove this woman is Mary or the Perpetual Virginity is a description that she bore the children from her womb. This passage only describes one child as being born of her womb.

At some point someone else on this thread posted:
Revelation 12 speaks of the constellation Bethula, and the 12 stars of the constellation Ariel beyond it, and the new moon at Bethula’s feet.

To which I responded:

First hit on a google search for the word Bethula turned up this page, which identifies Bethulah as a virgin, and we have a woman giving birth. How this is not Mary, I fail to understand.

Your response:

How this IS Mary; you've failed to prove.

When this thread started, I only ever saw Revelation 12 as evidence that Mary had been crowned Queen. Some Catholics used it to support the Assumption. In the process of arguing against the Assumption, I extracted the Immaculate Conception. In his rush to deny that it was Mary, ES made the claim the woman is Bethula (hebrew for virgin). This woman gives birth to a male child destined to rule all nations (i.e. Jesus). So know we have identified a Virgin giving birth to Jesus. This would appear to support the Perpetual Virginity (read one of the paragraphs at the top concerning the woman's other children). Please keep up the arguing, I may be able to pull co-rdemptrix out of this passage as well.

I had no real problem with a dual interpretation of this woman as Israel; however, I now see a reference to the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual sinlessness of the woman in question so I doubt it is Israel. My only problem with a triple interpretation including the Church was the description that the woman gives birth to a male child destined to rule all nations (i.e. Jesus).

The woman in Revelation is Isreal. It is she from which Jesus came. It is the remnant (the 144,000) of her seed who will flee and be persued by Satan during the last 3 1/2 years.

I see no reason to believe that her other children (no description of how they became her children) can only refer to the 144000 of Rev. 7 as the offspring here.
1,165 posted on 09/30/2014 5:53:09 AM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
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