Protecting God’s Word From “Bible Christians”

Crisis Magazine ^ | October 3, 2014 | RICHARD BECKER

[Syncro]

re papist

414 prots, a disparaging term for Protestants

re A childish insult.

414 I wouldn't want to give you the chance to whine about cross posting.

re Needlessly insulting; serves only to provoke.

See above and 439

And 414 again—I realize that prots have low IQ’s and difficulty with following threads.

323 prots continue to bear false witness.

319 Post 164

288 to see if ex-Catholics /anti-Catholics have integrity or are capable of telling the truth.

The answer is a resounding NO!

164, referenced more than once :Illiterates, idiots and liars

And posted more than once also and "Needlessly insulting; serves only to provoke."

And finally 556 I can handle far more than those lackwits can hand out

Needlessly insulting; serves only to provoke and a childish insult

Then it is the mods fault because the moderating is unfair.

Be sure to turn in posts you think are breaking the rules, and from both sides would be nice... I noticed you only pointed out posts from Protestant type posters. Hope the ones I found helped you to feel not so put upon.

It's been my experience that all belief systems are put through the gauntlet here on open threads.

[Springfield Reformer]

I would disagree with your statement that Mother is the first cause and say that the Father of the child is the first cause.

Granted, it takes two. But hard to say which has greater primacy in the process, either primacy of time or primacy of importance. At least in biological terms, "First Cause" is at best a tie. And when framed that way, it suggests a peer relationship in human partners that is simply not true of the incarnation. That discrepancy is what makes the expression problematic, not the Christological values sought to be protected by Chalcedon.  

As for what sort of side-effects "mother of God" might imply back in the Fourth Century, that's an excellent question.  It is too easy for us moderns to introduce anachronisms of perspective.  There may be a clue though in Nestorius, as I recall reading somewhere part of what drove his concern over using "Theotokos" was precisely this potential for exaggeration of the status of Mary.  If that truly was the case, then perhaps the difference over time is not so great, even though our biological science is more precise.

Queen is the female title equivalent to King; however, it is (usually, Elizabeth II is an exception) the King that rules by right. The Queen is determined by hr relationship to the King. In some monarchies, it is the wife of the King that is Queen. In Czarist Russia, the Czarina was the Mother of the King. However, if he dies/abdicates, she ceases to be Queen. If she dies/abdicates, he does not. The Queen does not have her own power.

But the problem is ontological. Typically, both King and Queen belong to the same class of being.  Furthermore, if the Queen is the mother of the King's Son, as would be the case if Mary were the Queen of Heaven, that peer status is reinforced. Because the King is supreme deity, as a class of being, it is very difficult to not assign the Queen to that same class, though technically there may be a dodge for that, such as your proposed analogy of derived power.  The problem is, clever dodges don't work for any but an extreme minority of very clever persons. Most folks are just not into the details and will reliably go with the big outlines, and the big outline is, if she's the Queen, and God's the King, and the jurisdiction is Heaven, we're talking about the functional equivalent of deity.

Peace,

SR

[CA Conservative]

I, a Protestant, pray for the souls of those I know whose bodies have died to go to heaven and be joined with our Savior and His Father there.

As long as you understand that the prayer is more for you and your peace of mind, and has no effect on their eternal destination. That fate is sealed once they pass from this life. If they are saved, Heaven is their destination. If they are lost, your prayers after the fact will not change this.

Just because it has become a practice of many to pray for the souls of the deceased, we should not then fall prey to the heretical idea that a soul's fate can be changed once they die. "It is appointed unto men once to die; after this, the judgment."

[dsc]

519: “The tactic that I see at work here is that the FRoman Catholics are taking a beating and are now pushing the RF guidelines, hoping to get the thread locked…”

“For instance, if you said “Mormons think they are better than anyone else” that would not be mind reading, but if you said “You think you’re better than anyone else” it would be mind reading.”

I am presuming that “FRoman Catholics” refers to Catholics posting on these threads.

Are you saying that if one reads the minds of a group of FR posters that is acceptable? How large must that group be to make the cut?

Are you saying that I may not say, “FR Poster X is motivated by Satanic malice,” but I may say, “FR Posters L through P are motivated by Satanic malice?”

[RegulatorCountry]

Honestly, it’s not that hard, dsc. Avoid implicitly personal attacks or attributing motive. If, to use your odious example, you are of the opinion that a particular set of beliefs are motivated by Satanic malice, then say so regarding the beliefs, not the individual.

If there is an identifiable belief with which you disagree, you’re free to say so as we all are, whether you find it Satanic, heretical, misleading or merely stupid. But, leave the individual out.

It’s intended to keep the peace on the FR Religion Forum as much as possible while still allowing free discourse and free religious expression.

[dsc]

“Be sure to turn in posts you think are breaking the rules, and from both sides would be nice... I noticed you only pointed out posts from Protestant type posters.”

Your point would be valid only if both sides were treated equally.

“It’s been my experience that all belief systems are put through the gauntlet here on open threads.”

Here’s a little something, originally posted by someone else, that is relevant here:

“I can explain (some alleged contradiction) quite easily. I see it here on FR all the time. Somebody latches onto a simple misinterpretation of a statement because it gives that person the perfect venue to strut and preen in defense of his own ecclesiastical/political/moral existence. Thus has Satan snuck in to the discussion all unnoticed. The saints—I believe it was a hated Jesuit as a matter of fact—have taught us that in a dispute, the disputing parties have a duty to attach the most innocent and least malicious motives and explanations to the other’s statements. It is part of the virtue of charity. It is what anyone would want from you, and it is plain common sense.

Now, there’s a recipe for elevating the level of discourse in the blink of an eye.”

If the Protestants here did not say untrue, malicious, and downright despicable things about Catholicism and Catholics, these threads would not exist.

Why? Because Catholics simply do not hate Protestants and Protestantism as some Protestants appear to hate Catholicism and Catholics.

Yes, I said “appear to hate,” even though reasoning backwards from behavior to motive—inductive reasoning—is sometimes prohibited here.

The duck test exists because it is so often correct: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[SampleMan]

Well, Moses did come down, so there is precedence, so let’s just say that it isn’t a cornerstone of my faith.

[dsc]

“If, to use your odious example, you are of the opinion that a particular set of beliefs are motivated by Satanic malice, then say so regarding the beliefs, not the individual.”

And right there you have violated the rules as you explain them. But you will not be called on the carpet, as others so often are.

Until all are treated equally, your oh-so-reasonable lecture is just a waste of time.

One very important component of human discourse is discerning the intent, motivation, and even the character of those with whom one communicates.

[SampleMan]

What part of “unto the Lord thy God” do Catholics not understand?

So if you ask your family to pray for you, its a sin?

[RegulatorCountry]

No, I described the example provided by you as odious, dec. Do you see the distinction?

[SampleMan]

I don't ignore the Old Testament, but as a general rule I think any Christian should start worrying if they are building cornerstones on verses outside of the New Testament.

The apostles did not go so far as to state that the old laws were dead, but they did make a point that Gentiles were not required to become Jewish before becoming Christian. So either the apostles were wrong, or much of the Old Law was no longer hard and fast.

I appreciate your argument, but if the Old Covenant is to be followed in full, I would wager you are going to have to make some serious changes in your life:

This one is a bit personal (sorry no offense intended):
“And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the evening.” —Leviticus 15:19, additionally, no church for 66 days after giving birth.

Did this one really come from God, or was it an interpretation of God's will by the elders to ensure a visible difference between Jews and pagans? Were linen and wool blends the only abominatable cloth? What of silk (from unclean animals) and polyester or cotton blends that didn't exist then? :
“Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.” — Leviticus 19:19

Here is one for men and women who sin with barbers:
“Ye shall not round the corners of your heads.” — Leviticus 19:27

This is a good one to remember for all parties involved:
“When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand.” — Deuteronomy 25:11-12

In reference to many, many sins, and clearly violated by Christ:
“They shall be stoned with stones, their blood shall be upon them.” — Leviticus 20:27

Reaping to the very edges of a field is wrong, but would leaving grain in the the field really help the poor today? —Leviticus (19:9)

And according to Leviticus (19:13), anything but day labor is a sin.

So, my point is, not to say the Old Testament doesn't matter at all, but to point out that there is an awful lot of very specific day to day actions put out in Leviticus and none of them appear in red letters. I tend to think the New Covenant came along when the old one had devolved into a book of wickets.

[Elsie]

There is nothing anti-Semitic in this statement.

Why is it relevant what the deniers of Christ did or didn't?

O...
K...

[Elsie]

Especially a redacted, poorly translated Bible.

There IS something MORMON in THIS statement!

[Elsie]

Bob called.

He wants his hat back.

[Elsie]

I do - and that’s why I am Catholic because the Catholic faith IS the Biblical position.

Mary is dead.

[Elsie]

I do - and that’s why I am Catholic because the Catholic faith IS the Biblical position.

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

---

A women who has NEVER had sex is a highly adored, venerated, respected and LOVED figurehead of the Catholic Church.

[Elsie]

Sola fide is the main doctrine of Protestantism. This is rejected in James 2:24.

HUH? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

---

Sola fide is the main doctrine of Protestantism. This is shown to be the way in DOZENS of Scriptures:

NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

 

NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

[Elsie]

Sola fide is the main doctrine of Protestantism. This is shown to be the way in DOZENS of Scriptures.

---

Feel free to post all the evidence to INCLUDE tradition into Christianity.

Good luck...

[Elsie]

CB was correct, in this case, about actions, or rather inactions speaking louder than words.

[Elsie]

I opposed Peter to his face; because he was clearly in the wrong.