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Why would anyone become Catholic?
https://www.indiegogo.com ^ | October 2, 2014 | Indiegogo

Posted on 10/08/2014 11:39:09 AM PDT by NKP_Vet

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To: daniel1212
1Cor. 5 is not at all a "clear" death sentence, unless you need it to be, as to be delivered over to the devil for chastisement has its only clear precedent in the story of Job, which was not unto death, but refinement of character

I'm somewhat surprised you did not delve into the Greek of 1 Cor 5. Job I have already mentioned, and I don't consider it character building, as it is incongruent with 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?. If you are convinced of it, would that suggest you think the LORD could do the same to anyone of us who is not in serious, unrepentant sin, hanging us over to Satan to build our character ? I find the concept preposterous. Job was a lamb, a symbol of Jesus after a manner. < p>As for Gal 5:12, I'm going with the Protestant KJV in this discussion. I don't cherry pick translations to make a point. I now expect you to use the same translation throughout, NAB is it ? Look at the four usages of the word and consider carefully that neither hands, nor feet, nor ear are mentioned. What is common to all ? A sword (or long knife); you have to go somewhere else (Phil 3:2) to get that sense;

Overthrowing the faith if some is a sin worthy of death, so I still hold Hymenaus and Alexander incurred that penalty. Dying of some horrid disease and knowing it was from God would teach them not to blaspheme. Using words of strong language with no power other than barring them from fellowship is really a stretch.

As for torture, execution, or murder of Jews or Gentiles done in the name of Jesus for religious reasons other than I specified (ie., not a criminal, just happens to have a different faith or interpretation), be they Catholic, Protestant, or Other, I categorically hold it to be wrong and unjust; I condemn it. I hold to my points about apostles, prophets, and angels being legitimate bringers of death as per the Biblical examples. Those were not murders. In general, I think the Gentiles who claim the name have been as lacking in fidelity to, and love for, to the LORD as Israel, with some generations of both being desperately wicked with almost no remedial value. There is an awesome day of judgment coming.

2,861 posted on 10/21/2014 11:02:59 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
    grammatical/spelling errors; my smart phone is on strike
  1. hanging => handing
  2. and love for, to the => and love for, the

2,862 posted on 10/21/2014 12:10:26 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: daniel1212

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This history is the fruit of the unbridled power of the Catholic church. If ever there was evidence against Catholicism that it is the body of Christ, this is it.

For all the ranting about how OSAS results in heathenish lifestyles where one can presumptuously sin with impunity, here we see the Catholic church operating in such a depraved manner, still calling itself the body of Christ. Essentially, the very thing they condemn in others.

Do those calling for the killing of heretics and the longing for the return of the Inquisition really understand what they are advocating for? I can only hope not and hope that they are further in ignorance about what they are really advocating for than one might conclude.


2,863 posted on 10/21/2014 12:17:22 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: af_vet_1981; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; daniel1212; ...
Overthrowing the faith if some is a sin worthy of death, so I still hold Hymenaus and Alexander incurred that penalty.

Chapter and verse?

And even if it is, WHOSE responsibility is it?

God did NOT delegate it to man.

If a man is to die for an injustice, it's GOD'S place to make that determination and carry out the sentence.

Torturing and killing people for dissenting against a denomination's cherished beliefs is murder, plain and simple, and the Catholic church not only has blood on its hands for such an action, but it is DRENCHED in the blood of all those whom it martyred, certainly worthy of the ultimate death sentence.

I am also appalled at the silence of the other FRoman Catholics on FR. I KNOW this thread is being read and watched and yet what we don't see here is ANY other Catholics denouncing the murder of heretics, the support of murdering heretics, or the Inquisition.

I guess you find out who your friends really are.

2,864 posted on 10/21/2014 12:24:20 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: RegulatorCountry

Luther is the favorite scapegoat for any and all evil, even that initiated and perpetrated by the Catholic church.

Facts don’t get in their way.


2,865 posted on 10/21/2014 12:25:07 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom; daniel1212

The Inquisition, incorporation of paganism, the unBiblical hierarchy, and retention of pedophile and homosexual priests it is beyond me how anyone would stay in that apostate religion.


2,866 posted on 10/21/2014 2:02:55 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: RegulatorCountry
So that's what inspired the yellow stars. All the screeching and assignations of blame directed at Martin Luther seem contrived in light of this.

As with the canon, Luther had some history on his side:

In The Popes Against the Jews : The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism, historian David Kertzer notes,

“the legislation enacted in the 1930s by the Nazis in their Nuremberg Laws and by the Italian Fascists with their racial laws—which stripped the Jews of their rights as citizens—was modeled on measures that the [Roman Catholic] Church itself had enforced for as long as it was in a position to do so” (9).

In 1466,

in festivities sponsored by Pope Paul II, Jews were made to race naked through the streets of the city. A particularly evocative later account describes them: “Races were run on each of the eight days of the Carnival by horses, asses and buffaloes, old men, lads, children, and Jews. Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them, and at the same time, more amusing for the spectators. They ran from the Arch of Domitian to the Church of St. Mark at the end of the Corso at full tilt, amid Rome’s taunting shrieks of encouragement and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily. Two centuries later, these practices, now deemed indecorous and unbefitting the dignity of the Holy City, were stopped by Clement IX. In their place the Pope assessed a heavy tax on the Jews to help pay the costs of the city’s Carnival celebrations.

“When all is said and done, the [Roman Catholic] Church’s claim of lack of responsibility for the kind of anti-Semitism that made the Holocaust possible comes down to this: The Roman Catholic Church never called for, or sanctioned, the mass murder of the Jews. Yes, the Jews should be stripped of their rights as equal citizens. Yes, they should be kept from contact with the rest of society. But Christian Charity and Christian theology forbade good Christians to round them up and murder them.”

See more in part 5 of a series (1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5, 6 .

2,867 posted on 10/21/2014 4:33:20 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Springfield Reformer
You can bring from Scripture no example of, nor even any theoretical support for, the New Testament Ecclesia exercising civil coercion via temporal instruments such as capital punishment, over issues that reside within the sole jurisdiction of said Ecclesia, i.e., matters of doctrine and spiritual state. Not until the great sacral fusion event of Constantine's transformation of Christianity into a state religion do you have such confusion imposed on the faithful shepherds of Christ's flocks. By sacral I mean that fusion of religion and state into a single, monolithic entity which imposes on all members of the society an obligation to observe all the principles of said religion regardless of whether one is actually an adherent. You may recognize this in Islam. Their vision of sharia law is exactly that of a sacral culture, exceptions from orderly belief being as criminal as exceptions from orderly behavior, where the difference between a semipelagian and a horse thief is a practical nullity.

As a Christian and a lawyer you have some understanding here by God's grace.

2,868 posted on 10/21/2014 4:33:43 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: CynicalBear; terycarl

>>rejecting Catholicism is rejecting the church that Christ founded and thus rejecting Christ...<<

Could you show the passage from scripture that teaches that?


Is it anywhere near the scripture that declares Mary to be queen of Heaven, coredemtrix and deified to be worshipped? I can’t seem to find that one either.


2,869 posted on 10/21/2014 4:37:46 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: terycarl; metmom; CynicalBear; Elsie; caww
so, no matter what we do, how evil we are, how degenerate our lives, how many people we molest, how we steal, pillage ,etc etc...we die and go straight to Heaven....good luck with that theory.

Romans 5:20-21

The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Nope, nothing here about needing to be "perfected."

2,870 posted on 10/21/2014 4:47:03 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: metmom
support for the power of the church to kill heretics, that that includes US.

Well, they did have a good start with the Jews.

2,871 posted on 10/21/2014 4:52:22 PM PDT by xone
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To: Elsie; terycarl; metmom; CynicalBear; caww

Why would anyone believe The LORD wants “solemn” worship?

He said if the children didn’t make a joyful noise and proclaim Him the very rocks would shout for Him.

I’m sure if any Catholics had been present they would have disapproved.

Say... Maybe the Catholics are actually descended from the Pharisees and Scribes. They seem to share many opinions.


2,872 posted on 10/21/2014 4:54:22 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: af_vet_1981; metmom; caww; CynicalBear; Elsie
Killing is not murder when God does it, and it seems to me, unless one cedes the scriptures, one has to concur that Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul did not commit murder when God used their words to kill people.

Elijah, Elisha, Peter and Paul were Prophets and Apostles. They prophesied what God wanted them to prophesies.

2,873 posted on 10/21/2014 5:07:42 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: editor-surveyor
Your ‘church’ defies every word Yeshua ever spoke!

that is really funny...they wrote it down and saved it throughout 2,014 years so that you would even know what it was. If I had the choice, and I do, to either believe the Catholic church or editor -surveyor...I think I'd choose those that were there WHEN HE SAID HIS WORDS....but that's just me!!! .

2,874 posted on 10/21/2014 5:27:17 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: boatbums
The Eastern Orthodox reject Catholicism

no they don't

2,875 posted on 10/21/2014 5:30:00 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: af_vet_1981; Resettozero; metmom; Rides_A_Red_Horse
I'm somewhat surprised you did not delve into the Greek of 1 Cor 5. Job I have already mentioned, and I don't consider it character building,

If you think the Greek will help you here go to it, while as with this issue of the church executing men, you are missing the point of Job as regards being delivered over to the devil, despite my explaining it, which somehow you seem blind to.

Which is that this can be a means of refinement of character or to bring repentance, though it can also bring death, either by the devil using nature or men, both of which was the case with Job's servants, offspring and property. And as the devil is a murderer, so would death have been the end with Job if God has not placed the devil on a leash, "only upon himself put not forth thine hand." (v. 12) The Lord also healed a a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan had bound for eighteen years. (Luke 13:16)

Thus your attempt to make 1Cor. 5 refer to death simply because the person at issue was not a Job is absurd, as it remains that to be delivered over to the devil means one will go thru negative experiences, which can be death but also can work repentance as well as refinement of character. And the purpose of this punishment in 1Cor. 5 was that the soul may be saved, thus if the person repented then there would be deliverance.

And if anything, that alone is just what is indicated. Paul delivered this man over in union with the church, and in 2 Corinthians 2:6-8 he refers to the punishment of a man who had done wrong and was punished, stating "Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him." Later on in 7:11,12 Paul again refers the one who had done the wrong and commends the Corinthians dealing with this. As there is only one individual who is described as being so punished, so it is congruous that this is the one referred to.

As for Gal 5:12, I'm going with the Protestant KJV in this discussion. How conveniently Protestant of you, though other RCs attack it, and I referred to your primary English Bible as that is sanctioned by your bishops (assuming you are American), while the the KJV is not.

Look at the four usages of the word and consider carefully that neither hands, nor feet, nor ear are mentioned.

What? Rather, the word apokoptō - which occurs 6 times - simply means "off," but nowhere in the NT is it used for cutting off the life of someone, but instead it is 3 human appebfadges and a rope that is mentioned:

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mar 9:43)

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mar 9:45)

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. (Joh 18:10)

One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? (Joh 18:26)

Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off. (Act 27:32)

Thus it easily could denote castration, while there is nothing wrong with the more literal KJV rendering it "cut off,"

Strike 2.

Overthrowing the faith if some is a sin worthy of death, so I still hold Hymenaus and Alexander incurred that penalty.

By that rational we can add 40 more things that Paul delivered souls over to death for, yet as said, this was that they may learn something, and which is consistent with Paul's earnest striving to bring rebellious souls in the church to repentance.

As for torture, execution, or murder of Jews or Gentiles done in the name of Jesus for religious reasons other than I specified (ie., not a criminal, just happens to have a different faith or interpretation), be they Catholic, Protestant, or Other, I categorically hold it to be wrong and unjust; I condemn it.

Very good, if only you had come out and stated this clearly at the beginning of your posting, as it should have been obvious that this was this real issue.

That souls can be chastened or executed by spiritual means, even by righteous praying believers, is a given, as is that the OT required capital punishment.

1. Idolatry

10. Rebellion against parents

19. Marriage under the pretense of being a virgin: 

1. Sabbath breaking 

10. Eating sacred sacrifice while unlcean

2. Sacrificing to false gods

11. Disobedience to authority

20. Prostitution by daughter of priest

2. Unholy presumption

11. Eating the peace offering after the second day

3. Coveting and making a wicked thing one's possession

12. Murder

21. Man stealers

3. Consuming blood

12. Not purifying oneself

4. Enticement to idolatry

13. Negligent homicide

22. False Witnesses

4. Sexual relations during menstruation

13. Not bringing sacrificed animals to the tabernacle

5. False prophets

14. Homosexuality

23. Deliberate disobedience,

5. Not resting and humbling yourself on the Day of Atonement

 

6. Blasphemy

15. Bestiality

24. Removing neighbor's landmark(possible)

6. Not keeping the Passover if able

 

7. Witchcraft

16. Adultery

25. Making the blind to wander out of the way.

7. Imitating sacred incense, or anointing a stranger with it

 A word to the lost

8. Child sacrifice to idols

17. Incest

26. Perverting the judgment of the stranger,(possible)

8.Eating unleavened bread during Passover

A word to Christians

9. Revilers of parents

18. All sins of Leviticus 18

27. Afflicting any widow, or fatherless child (Divine execution)

9. Eating fat of any sacrificed beast 

 


2,876 posted on 10/21/2014 5:42:19 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: terycarl; boatbums
The Eastern Orthodox reject Catholicism

no they don't

Depends how you define Catholicism. Some RCs deny EOS are to be called Catholic, thus they take offense at "Roman Catholic" in making that distinction.

2,877 posted on 10/21/2014 5:44:39 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: boatbums
But, genuine, godly, faithful Christians also exist outside of the Roman Catholic church which demonstrates that there ARE Christians who are not Roman Catholic and they also are part of THE church Jesus established, just as there were in the early centuries of Christianity. Once this important distinction is realized, pride, animosity and hatred can be alleviated.

Catholics have never denied that...of course there are Christians outside the Catholic church...but all of the myriad of protestant denominations are in some way incomplete of full Christianity. One of the most important, if not THE most important belief in Catholicism is the true presence, in the Eucharist, of the Body, Blood, Soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ...He said it was there and we believe it.

2,878 posted on 10/21/2014 5:49:02 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: boatbums
Are you aware that great libraries existed in Egypt (Alexandria), Rome, Anatolia (Constantinople), Africa, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Syria, China as well as others

of course I am aware of them, but they certainly weren't like your local public library where virtually anyone can check out a book and take it home. The average person could not make use of those libraries because they couldn't read. Books were not available to the average person because they were hand written and extraordinarily expensive. The major libraries, of course had books, documents and such, but if you lived in say Bethlehem, you had to either walk or ride a donkey to wherever the library was....then you might be able to actually hold a book and perhaps, if you were one of the very few literate people from there, obtain some knowledge from it.

2,879 posted on 10/21/2014 6:04:04 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Elsie
We protestants don't have that purgatory thingy. It must be mentioned in the books that Luther removed.p> sure you have it, you just don't believe it...that makes no difference whatsoever....and yes, Luther didn't like the idea and he removed the book of Machabees where it instructs us to pray for our dead....without purgatory there would be no need to do so....See you there!!!
2,880 posted on 10/21/2014 6:15:18 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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