Posted on 10/31/2014 4:56:55 PM PDT by Gamecock
Full Title: Pope Francis 'called us his brother bishops,' says Protestant pastor from Mobile, who lunched, swapped caps with the pontiff
MOBILE, Alabama - First, the pope does not want his ring kissed. And he prefers to be called Father Francis rather than Your Holiness.
Those were some of the marching orders given to Rev. Henry W. Roberts II of Mobile and other bishops with the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, who met with Pope Francis at the Vatican Oct. 10. The CEEC is an international ecumenical network that strives for unity among all Christians.
"He looks like one of the fellas. He's so down to earth," said Roberts, describing a photo he took with the pope during the visit. Roberts is founding pastor of Word of Life Community Church, an interdenominational congregation of 1,500 with locations in Chickasaw and Whistler. A graduate of McGill-Toolen Catholic School, he has been a bishop with the CEEC network since 2007.
Roberts said one of the bishops asked the pontiff if he would bless them to go and proclaim the miracle of unity. "He said, 'I can't really bless you, because we're brother bishops.' He actually called us his brother bishops," he said.
Roberts said the group met with Pope Francis for more than an hour and shared lunch in his private dining room at Casa Santa Marta, his Vatican residence. The main topics at the meeting, which occurred during the recent Synod, were family and Christian unity.
"He said, No. 1, that we as believers, as Christians, have to stop talking bad about each other and being condescending," Roberts recalled. "No. 2, we need to find a good Catholic that we can just fellowship with and develop a relationship with."
Roberts also exchanged a skull cap called a zucchetto with the pontiff. He had purchased the white hat made especially for Francis in Rome to make the swap. "I loved his personality, and I could feel his heart and compassion for people and his love for people," he said. "I know he's sincere about seeing people come together."
The meeting with the CEEC bishops, which was videoed and is on YouTube, shows the pope speaking through an interpreter about the need for unity. "We're always concentrating on the differences," the pope told the group. "We all have the same baptism, and the same baptism is more important than our differences. We all believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
The CEEC, considered part of the "convergence movement," drew media attention this year because of a longtime friendship between the pope and CEEC Bishop Tony Palmer of South Africa. Palmer, a Protestant who considered Francis his spiritual father, organized the October meeting before he was killed in a motorcycle accident in August.
The pope famously recorded a seven-minute video on Palmer's iPhone for the bishop to present to a conference by U.S. evangelist Rev. Kenneth Copeland. In the video, which went viral on YouTube, the Pope Francis urges "the miracle of unity" between Protestants and Catholics.
If you are a Catholic; do you not KNOW why?
Well; Protestants have this VAST influence in the RCC; you see.
I do understand why you might render my statement, "Actually a confession of faith in the atonement of the blood of Christ is not required by Rome for a baptism which makes one a recipient of the Holy Spirit and a child of God," into a denial that Catholics do not make a profession of faith in the atonement.
For the reality is that Rome recognizes trinitarian baptisms that do not include a profession of faith in the atonement, such as in a case of necessity or even by certain persons she deems as "heretics," provided they have the requisite intention. (canon 861 §2)
Which is done under the premise that the act itself effects regeneration, and justification by one's own interior "infused" holiness (thus culminating in most suffering postmortem in purgatory to become good enough - and atone for sins - to actually enter Heaven) .
Why Pope Pius IX even had police remove a Jewish child from his parents home permanently (unless the parents converted) and taken to Rome to be raised as a ward of the state, because he was allegedly secretly baptized as an infant. No mention was made by me of the Mass and its endocannibalism.
1 Timothy 3
1 The saying is 1trustworthy: If anyone aspires to 2the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore 3an overseera must be above reproach, 4the husband of one wife,b5sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, 6hospitable, 7able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but 8gentle, not quarrelsome, 9not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity 10keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for 11God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may 12become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by 13outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into 14a snare of the devil.
Cordially,
Excommunication is a specific, juridical punishment provided for in Canon Law. An excommunication can be imposed by a sentence, or it can be incurred automatically.
A person can be a loathsome, dishonest, foul, violent criminal (e.g., Nancy Pelosi) without incurring excommunication. The number of people living in sin, without sanctifying grace, cut off from the life of the Church and from Jesus Christ, vastly exceeds the number of excommunicates.
Not-being-excommunicated is NOT a seal of approval from the Church. The failure to excommunicate millions or billions of people is in no way a denial of the reality of sin. In Hell, there are billions of people who were never excommunicated.
Just Scripture...
1 Corinthians 5:2 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
And you are puffed up; and have not rather mourned, that he might be taken away from among you, that hath done this deed.
Yet how many times he has spoken "infallibly" is subject to interpretation, as can be the meaning, as V2 showed on EENS. Yet some RCs interpret V2 as only selectively binding, as with the CCC.
You’re not Catholic, what a Catholic pope does is none of your concern. Worry about your own faith for a change.
But this makes popes and prelates - whom RCs insist we must look to for determination of Truth rather than our objective interpretation - subject to interpretation by laymen, the very thing RCs attack.
And canon law - which can be changed - leaves the judgment of whether person should not receive the Eucharist up to the local ordinary, though he may be overruled by the Vatican. (Canon 1184 §2) And your interpretation contradicts that of cardinals as Wuerl:
I stand with the great majority of American bishops and bishops around the world in saying this canon [Canon 915] was never intended to be used this way.'' -- http://www.canonlaw.info/2009/03/abps-wuerl-c-916-burke-cc-915-916-on.html
Even the pope can be indicted under your premise, as Teddy K wrote to the pope, delivered by Pres. Obama, and the pope wrote back (through a senior Vatican official), out of which Cardinal McCarrick read, in which there was neither any evident penitence by the former or censure from the latter. Instead Kennedy insolently asserted he “never failed to believe and respect the fundamental teachings” of his church, and tried to be a faithful Catholic, etc..
The closest thing we get to any kind of contrition is the ambiguous, “I know that I have been an imperfect human being, but with the help of my faith, I have tried to right my path,” before he goes on to to defend his wonderful works, including fighting discrimination. Not a word of remorse about supporting abortion or promoting homosexual rights - which were part of his fight against discrimination, or promoting indolence and a welfare state.
And all we have from the papal response is no chastisement, but the pope expressing that, "he is particularly grateful for your promise of prayers for him and for the needs of the universal Church," and "invokes upon you the consolation and peace promised by the Risen Savior, and “cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of wisdom, comfort and strength in the Lord.” (http://www.thebostonpilot.com/articleprint.asp?id=10800/)
Most of the bishops in the U.S. are chronically in the state of mortal sin because of their insistence that pro-abortion politicians be given Communion..
Canon 912 and 915 state,
Can. 912 Any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.
Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.
Yet Canon lawyer Edward Peters offers a rule of thumb for the interpretation of Canon 915, which stipulates that the Eucharist should not be administered to those who have been excommunicated “and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin.”
Unless a substantial majority of the community in question (I’m assuming them to be adults, reasonably aware of Catholic life around them, etc.) knows at the time why a given individual is being denied holy Communion, that’s a pretty good sign that Canon 915 has not been satisfied, and that Canon 912 (and some others norms) has been violated. - http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=897
And while Canon 1184 forbids - unless they gave some signs of repentance before death - (which is subject to interpretation), ecclesiastical funerals to "notorious apostates, heretics, and schismatics.." "manifest sinners who cannot be granted ecclesiastical funerals without public scandal of the faithful," yet §2. "If any doubt occurs, the local ordinary is to be consulted, and his judgment must be followed."
And just who will invalidate or depose him and how?
the Apostolic See has received and hath government, authority, and power of binding and loosing from the Incarnate Word Himself; and, according to all holy synods, sacred canons and decrees, in all things and through all things, ..
From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest...The reason for which is stated thus: "there is no authority greater than that of the Apostolic See"..wherefore Gelasius on the decrees of Councils says: "That which the First See has not approved of cannot stand; but what it has thought well to decree has been received by the whole Church"..
Rightly, therefore, has Leo X. laid down in the 5th council of Lateran "that the Roman Pontiff alone, as having authority over all Councils, has full jurisdiction and power to summon, to transfer, to dissolve Councils..there is nothing to show that the Apostles received supreme power without Peter, and against Peter. — Leo XIII - Satis cognitum; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html
"We read that the Roman Pontiff has pronounced judgments on the prelates of all the churches; we do not read that anybody has pronounced sentence on him"
CCC For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.
The First See is judged by no one. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P5A.HTM
Dictatus papae [1075] (a compilation of 27 statements of powers arrogated to the Pope that was included in Pope Gregory VII's register under the year 1075):
That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet. That a sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one; and that he himself, alone of all, may retract it. That he himself may be judged by no one. That no one shall dare to condemn one who appeals to the apostolic chair. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/g7-dictpap.asp
Thus it is contended,
Only he [the Pope] can summon universal councils No synod can be called valid without the pope's agreement.
The pope may be judged by no one, even if he should deny the faith, as is seen from [Pope] Marcellinus. All others can do nothing without him.
The Roman church by a singular privilege closes and opens the heavens to whomever it wishes, as Pope Julius testifies.
The pope's judicial decision may not be overturned by anyone except him himself or one of his successors.
He may change kingdoms, as did Gregory, Stephen, and Adrian. - http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/churchhistory511/topic%20three/DictatusAvranches.htm
that the Pope heretic can be truly and authoritatively deposed by the Church, is no less false than the first... it must be observed in the first place that, from the fact that the Pope deposes bishops, it is deduced that the Pope is above all the bishops, though the Pope on deposing a bishop does not destroy the episcopal jurisdiction, but only separates it from that person. — http://www.fisheaters.com/bellarmine.html
And by what infallible list do you determine what is infallible? And by what infallible authority do you judge the pope? Judging the pope makes the supreme interpreter subject to the interpretation of others. And if V2 can take the infallible declaration of Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam:
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself." — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
And turn it into,
there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (Cf. Jn. 16:13) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ...they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit (LUMEN GENTIUM: 16), incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church;” (Dominus Iesus)
Then this, along with other contrasts , testifies to the fact that Rome can interpret herself, even though it seems to many RCs (sects as the SSPX, SSPV) that she has contradicted herself, with some even judging the popes as being guilty of teaching heresy.
Yet the list of Teddy K pols - who evidently are judged by the local ordinary to have manifest repentance keeps getting longer, with Chaves and now Menino (today0 being added.
You and other RCs can judge your leaders of heresy or mortal sin, but it makes you akin to Prots who do the same, whom RCs censure for doing rather than submitting to RC leadership as the only authoritative interpreters of Scripture etc.
You can equivocate that only infallible teaching is not subject to dissent or be interpretation, but what is infallible is itself subject to interpretation, and most of what RCs believe and practice may be infallible. Moreover, very little of Scripture has been infallibly defined. The RC has no infallible interpreter for his supreme authority any more than an evangelical does.
And as one poster asked,
entlemen such as Michael Liccione, Ray Stamper, and Bryan Cross, unless I have misunderstood them, have taught that when one comes into the Catholic Interpretive Paradigm (not to say every faithful Catholic does this, or must do this), they are giving an assent of faith that is supernatural in character, and then far exceeds the limits of human reason. Thus, “Whatever the Church says, Christ says” and “Whatever the Church does, Christ does”. Under this principle, one sees that Christ is working above and behind the whole ecclesial program. Any seceding or doubt that occurs in the heart is quickly repented of, because of the higher order of knowledge that is working behind the visible structure of the Catholic Church, and one must trust and commit themselves to this higher order. Therefore, how can one even know beyond his/her own opinion that there is corruption in the Church? - http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2014/10/called-to-communion-on-roots-of.html
For "the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X. As RC writers have exhorted,
...having discovered the authority established by God, you must submit to it at once. There is no need of further search for the doctrines contained in the Christian Gospel, for the Church brings them all with her and will teach you them all. You have sought for the Teacher sent by God, and you have secured him; what need of further speculation? Your private judgment has led you into the Palace of Truth, and it leaves you there, for its task is done; the mind is at rest, the soul is satisfied, the whole being reposes in the enjoyment of Truth itself, who can neither deceive nor be deceived....”
“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” “Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 ); http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/faith2-10.htm]
"The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question. This places the Catholic in a position whereby he must stand aloof from all manner of doctrinal teaching other than that delivered by his Church through her accredited ministers." — (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York ;
The only RCC in Scripture was an invisible one.
That's not my department.
None of which is relevant.
The Pope has all sorts of power, juridically.
If a Pope solemnly teaches heresy, and does so obstinately, he ceases to be Pope.
Two entirely distinct issues.
That's what the Mormons and Izlamaniacs say as well about their false religions...God tells us to use the scripture to correct your false religions...How can we do anything else???
“Rome does this for EVERYONE!”
They don’t do it for me. I won’t demand to take communion at a Catholic church.
“Is it THAT complex?”
Yes.
“If you are a Catholic; do you not KNOW why?”
Which is the point. They want you to know why before they give you the Eucharist - so young kids don’t get Communion - they don’t know what it means - even Catholic kids.
I don’t have any idea why I’m posting to you on letting Catholics be Catholic.
Says the guy that is continually harping on the EVILS of Luther etal!
2 Corinthians 1:13-14
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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