Pope Francis 'called us his brother bishops,' says Protestant pastor from Mobile, who lunched, swapp

al.com ^ | October 31, 2014 | Carol McPhail

[Springfield Reformer]

Pro-abortion politicians are not “automatically excommunicated.” Only those directly involved in an abortion incur an automatic excommunication.

Who said I was talking about politicians?  I've got family in the Chicago area, all Catholics in good standing, who have both advocated and participated in the murder of unborn children, who to this day look down from their lofty Catholic perch on me as the Bible-thumping backwoods Baptist who sides with that evil misogynist Paul over the reproductive rights of women.

Pro-abortion politicians ARE notorious grave sinners. It is a mortal sin for a bishop and/or priest to give them Communion. Most of the bishops in the U.S. are chronically in the state of mortal sin because of their insistence that pro-abortion politicians be given Communion.

Chronic sin is a sign of spiritual death:

1 John 3:8-10  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.  (9)  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  (10)  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Lest anyone think this is advocating sinless perfectionism, it is not. The verbs in the Greek indicate ongoing action, "chronic sin," as you put it.  God does not produce stillborn children.  John puts it out there plain: A true child of God will display the attributes of his or her Heavenly Father. So if the admission is to chronic, ongoing sin, that's admitting quite a lot.

The rationalization for allowing them Catholic funerals is that they had a priest around as death approached. In my opinion, any pro-abortion politician should be presumed NOT to have repented unless he made a PUBLIC declaration of repentance. And a big, public funeral is scandalous.

Cardinal O’Malley, by his fawning over Obama and the Kennedys, signaled very clearly that he is unoffended by abortion.

In these last points we have no disagreement.  It is a tragedy for all concerned, and a deeply felt one for me personally.

Peace,

SR

[boatbums]

And when we see the supposedly unifying leadership of the supreme pontiff, well advertised here as allegedly a superior value in the Roman model, fracturing the church instead, we are to understand him to really be a Protestant and not just a liberal Roman schismatic who will in fact suffer no consequences for the crime of rending the Roman church asunder.

Yet, some here will still vociferously assert the Pope remains infallible if/when he should ever declare a truth ex cathedra. The only way face-saving can be attempted in the interim is the claim that none of those "bad" Popes ever changed or created "dogma" or doctrine. They will hang onto Christ leading His disciples into all truth meaning the RC church cannot ever err in matters of faith and morals - though there is MUCH that can be demonstrated where she has. I imagine it's the same kind of pickle the Jewish pharisees found themselves in in Jesus' day - and NOT the kosher kind. ☺

[boatbums]

Ya think?!

[Springfield Reformer]

Pro-abortion politicians are not “automatically excommunicated.” Only those directly involved in an abortion incur an automatic excommunication.

One more thing. Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount that you don't have to actually commit murder to be spiritually guilty of it. How unjust is it that these politicians, whose glib talk and death-dealing votes can facilitate the murder of millions, get a pass, but the rank and file, who are just living according to what their leaders tell them is permitted, get the ax?  Isn't there an ancient principle in the law, Lex Talionis, that teaches punishment should be proportional to the crime?  If a politician is fostering evil on a grand scale, yet his hands are technically "clean," how does it escape the judgment of the Roman magisterium that his is the greater guilt than any low-level pawn following his lead?  Who was held accountable at Nuremberg?  Only those grunts who personally killed defenseless, individual prisoners of war?  Or did the guilt run up all the way to the top, engulfing everyone involved in causing it to happen, even if they were only arms-length facilitators?

Peace,

SR

[Arthur McGowan]

Excommunication is a specific penalty in Church law.

Not being excommunicated does NOT mean that a person is “clean,” or free of guilt.

Pro-abortion politicians are ALL in the state of mortal sin. ALL of them have the obligation NOT to approach for Communion. And ALL priests, bishops, deacons, and other ministers of Communion commit mortal sin when they give Communion to these people.

Bishops, like Wuerl, O’Malley, Dolan, Chaput, Gomez—and most others—are ALSO in the state of mortal sin because they insist on giving Communion to pro-abortion politicians. I make bold to say they are in the state of mortal sin because, being bishops, they are well-instructed in the Faith, and they have had many, many warnings that what they are doing is mortally sinful. They know that what they are doing is mortally sinful. They have all reflected on it sufficiently to issue lying statements rationalizing what they are doing. This means they have reflected upon their sin sufficiently to guarantee that they are responsible.

[boatbums]

Bishops, like Wuerl, O’Malley, Dolan, Chaput, Gomez—and most others—are ALSO in the state of mortal sin because they insist on giving Communion to pro-abortion politicians. I make bold to say they are in the state of mortal sin because, being bishops, they are well-instructed in the Faith, and they have had many, many warnings that what they are doing is mortally sinful. They know that what they are doing is mortally sinful. They have all reflected on it sufficiently to issue lying statements rationalizing what they are doing. This means they have reflected upon their sin sufficiently to guarantee that they are responsible.

Whose job is it to enforce church discipline upon these bishops and what happens when nothing happens even should it go all the way to the Pope?

The scandal SR and others with liberal RC friends and relatives are seeing is that, because there are nothing but disapproving "words", it appears to not be an issue, which justifies the opinions these pro-abortion politicians and their supporters have. I can't help but think Peter or Paul would have NEVER stood for such blatant disobedience to God's moral law among members much less the leaders of churches they established.

Some FRoman Catholics complain that their religion is always bashed and the whole world is against them, yet it can't be missed that much of that is the result of a disconnect between what is claimed and what is practiced. Jesus said unto whom much is given, much will be required - I don't think he was talking in merely church-related ways.

[Arthur McGowan]

You are absolutely correct. The bishops in question, AND the Popes, have caused grave scandal. They have given millions of people reason to doubt the truth of what the Church teaches about abortion and the Eucharist, and they have given millions of people reason to doubt that God speaks through the Catholic Church.

Nevertheless, the historical reasons to be a Catholic are independent of whether the hierarchy of the Church are negligent, unfaithful, and cowardly. There were thousands of Catholics martyred in the same England in which ALL the bishops but one (St. John Fisher) caved in to Henry VIII.

There will be many Catholics in America who will be murdered by the government for their faith, despite the fact that most of the bishops are faithless.

[Arthur McGowan]

I don’t understand why you persist in asserting that Catholics do not make a profession of faith in the atonement.

The recitation of the Nicene Creed or the Apostles’ Creed is part of the Mass, and part of the Baptism ritual. The Mass is all about the atonement accomplished in the suffering and death of Jesus. Since the atonement is part of the Catholic Faith, it is affirmed every time a Catholic professes the Faith, sometimes in words, sometimes in an ACTION.

The reception of Communion is an act which signifies PRECISELY belief in, and a determination to be joined with, the sacrificial suffering and death of Jesus.

[Elsie]

In the Catholic Church, there are three “sacraments of initiation”: Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist.

In the Bible it says...

 

 

 

 

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Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

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John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?

 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

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1 John 3:21-23
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

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James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

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[Elsie]

"He said, No. 1, that we as believers, as Christians, have to stop talking bad about each other and being condescending," Roberts recalled.

Then what SHALL we do about all that is already WRITTEN by the Roman Catholic Church about Protestantism?

(Luther WILL be popping up in this thread...)

[Elsie]

Francis has utter contempt for Catholicism.

Oh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eleventh_Commandment_(Ronald_Reagan)

[Elsie]

But the Catholic Church has had bad popes before.

Why?

Don't the voters do ANY research first?

[Elsie]

This Pope Francis is just so undignified. It’s an embarrassment.

Really?

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James 2:1-3

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.
For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool...

[Elsie]

Ostentatious humility. Childish homilies. Careless, off-hand, scandalous comments.

But...

...has he had anyone dug up and de-fingered?

This too shall pass.

[Elsie]

What possible reason would the CC do that?

It's the magic potion.

You MUST be a 'member' to receive it.

[Elsie]

It’s important to them.

This we realize.

The WHY it's important is what eludes us.

[Elsie]

Children in Catholic and some Protestant faiths do not receive the eucharist until they are educated and old enough to understand it’s meaning.

And Rome gets to decide that; right?

[Elsie]

When baptism is delayed, a person is without the theological virtues, and is still in the state of original sin.

HMMMmmm...

I just KNOW I've read that in the Bible... somewhere...

[Elsie]

He is left to negotiate the pitfalls and temptations of life—especially puberty!—without sanctifying grace. Nothing could be more dangerous.

Oh so true!!!

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What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?

 

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"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982

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"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

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"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65

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"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196

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"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

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"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965

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"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

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"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

[Elsie]

If the college of cardinals is not guided by the Holy Spirit in the selection of the new pope, then just what guides it?

Does Anyone claim that the POPE is 'led by the Spirit'?