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To: mdmathis6

Mary was saved by Jesus. She was preserved from Original Sin from the moment of her conception. She did not need to be a sinner in order to need a savior. Her sinlessness does not imply that she needed no savior. The opposite is true.

The Fathers of the Church teach that Mary’s sinlessness is evidenced in the fact that her body obeyed her will in conceiving the Son of God in her womb. She heard the word of God from the angel, and consented to conceive the Word in her womb. Being the New Eve, without sin, she enjoyed a freedom and a mind-body integrity lacking in those weakened by Original Sin.

There is no reason to suppose that, in his preaching about what corrupts a man (what comes from outside vs. what comes from within), Jesus intended to settle any question concerning the sinlessness of Mary. To exploit the words of Jesus in that way is to twist and misuse Scripture—in a manner that is all too common.

When St. Paul says that “all have sinned” he is referring to all who need to repent of sins. Why would he bother to carve out an exception for Mary if he was not discussing Mary and not addressing Mary?

Is there any evidence that Paul foresaw that this particular verse would be exploited 1500 years later to “prove” that Mary was a sinner?

What basis is there for holding that each individual verse of Scripture may be used to prove points that its author was not discussing, and can be leitimately used to prove points, without reference to its context, without reference to its author’s immediate purpose, and without reference to its audience?


192 posted on 11/22/2014 8:50:47 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan

Show me that from scripture that Mary was saved from sin from her conception....scripture and verse...I want to see it...not just some ancient beard scratching musings from some old church patriarch 200 years after Christianity got started!


193 posted on 11/22/2014 9:24:09 PM PST by mdmathis6
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To: Arthur McGowan
She was preserved from Original Sin from the moment of her conception.

Total speculation!


201 posted on 11/23/2014 3:21:39 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
The Fathers of the Church teach that Mary’s sinlessness is evidenced in the fact that her body obeyed her will in conceiving the Son of God in her womb. She heard the word of God from the angel, and consented to conceive the Word in her womb.

CONSENTED?

Luke 1:38
And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

202 posted on 11/23/2014 3:24:16 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
There is no reason to suppose that, in his preaching about what corrupts a man (what comes from outside vs. what comes from within), Jesus intended to settle any question concerning the sinlessness of Mary.

And your chosen religion SUPPOSES just the opposite!

203 posted on 11/23/2014 3:25:32 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
There is no reason to suppose that, in his preaching about what corrupts a man (what comes from outside vs. what comes from within), Jesus intended to settle any question concerning the sinlessness of Mary.

Hello!

Jesus was addressing the state of ALL men and women.

Why do you 'suppose' that Mary would be left out?

204 posted on 11/23/2014 3:26:30 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
Is there any evidence that Paul foresaw that this particular verse would be exploited 1500 years later to “prove” that Mary was a sinner?

Sigh.

1. You guys TEACH that Mary NEVER had sexual intercourse with Joseph.

2. The bible states:
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. . . 1 Corinthians 7:4-5

3. Thus; Mary was a SINNER!

205 posted on 11/23/2014 3:31:52 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
What basis is there for holding that each individual verse of Scripture may be used to prove points that its author was not discussing, and can be leitimately used to prove points, without reference to its context, without reference to its author’s immediate purpose, and without reference to its audience?

I would have LOVED to see where your tongue was, as you typed this!!!

206 posted on 11/23/2014 3:32:51 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arthur McGowan; Elsie

“The Fathers of the Church teach that Mary’s sinlessness is evidenced in the fact that her body obeyed her will in conceiving the Son of God in her womb. She heard the word of God from the angel, and consented to conceive the Word in her womb. Being the New Eve, without sin, she enjoyed a freedom and a mind-body integrity lacking in those weakened by Original Sin”

The church fathers weren’t even reading their own compiled scriptures for as Gabriel said to Mary:Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lots of folks of the Bible have “consented” to do God’s will...Moses, Elijah...ect but that didn’t make them any less sinners nor was it “evidence that they were sinless from birth. Now God in his grace forgave them because as the Bible says in Habbakuk 2:4 and amplified again in Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38 “The righteous shall live by his faith!” Now the Bible also says” To as many as believed gave he the power to become the children of God” Guess what! Mary believed and not only became a child of God, cleansed of her unrighteousness, she birthed the actual Son of God. The righteousness of Christ was imputed to her as though she had never sinned. Yet that also happens to all who become Christians...he drops our “sins into the sea of forgetfulness and remembers them no more”.

Christ would still have to die and rise again but as God is timeless, so was Mary’s salvation sealed from the founding of the world..as was any other Christian’s!

Mary trusted God and “lived by her faith”. That was what saved her. If you have any scriptural evidence that she was this “new eve” sinless from her conception, then I want to see it... chapter and verse!


208 posted on 11/23/2014 4:45:46 AM PST by mdmathis6
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