Posted on 12/05/2014 7:18:21 PM PST by Salvation
"All Scripture"
2 Timothy 3
1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, 7 who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;
9 but they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
10 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness,
11 my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico'nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.
12 Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived.
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
How about 2 Tim 3:16,17?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3234328/posts?page=82#82
Already answered.
None of the original texts are preserved.
" So your attempt to use that argument against Scripture falls apart."
I am not making an argument 'against Scripture'. I am making an argument FOR Scripture. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
I am arguing that Scripture is authoritative because it was verified by the practice of the Church, as it was handed down to us. I.e. Tradition, which means "that which is handed down."
A most obvious example: the Gospels. All four of them are anonymous as far as the text is concerned. None of them are signed or self-attested as to authorship. How do we know their authorship? Tradition. Without this authorship, would these books have been accepted into the canon? No. Therefore they were accepted into the canon on the authority of Tradition, which said that these books were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
"Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a pharisee. Whatever the Jews of those days considered Scripture is going to be what he was referring to." But that can't be "all" he was referring to, because there were at least 34 books written in Greek which the Jews (at least as of ~100 AD) did not accept, including, of course, the Gospels.
Very good Scripture, very relevant.
Yes.
Agreed.
"Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a pharisee. Whatever the Jews of those days considered Scripture is going to be what he was referring to."
But that can't be "all" he was referring to, because there were at least 34 books written in Greek which the Jews (at least as of ~100 AD) did not accept, including, of course, the Gospels.
I want to add that while Paul was a Pharisee, the Pharisees didn't represent all Jews, only one faction. Other factions in the late Second Temple period were the Sadducees, Essenes, and Karaites.
This is relevant because they accepted different canons of Scripture. The Sadducees saw the Torah as the sole source of divine authority. That means they accepted only the first five books of Moses as canonical. (Interestingly, like the Gospels, they are anonymous: Moses is not identified is the author in the texts. Only by Tradition.)
In first century Jerusalem there were at least four OT Canons in use by different Jewish Groups. There was the Canon of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Ethiopian Jews and the Diaspora/Essene Jews. Jesus and the disciples used the Septuagint which was the Canon of the Diaspora/Essenes. We know this because it is quoted in the New Testament. This Canon continued to be the Canon of Christians until well after the Reformation and, in fact until about 200 years ago when the Protestants adopted a condensed version of the Canon eliminating the Deuterocanonicals from their Bibles. Even the AKJ originally contained the complete Christian Canon.
It has been said by some that the Deuterocanonicals were never believed to be inspired; just the opposite is true. The decision by Christians as to which books are inspired and useful for teaching was decided at the African Synods in the late fourth and early fifth century. There was never a question about their inspiration.
Keep in mind that it wasn't based on "the Jews." There was not an OT canon accepted by all Jews.
Here's the other relevant point: the Sadducees rejected the Oral Law as proposed by the Pharisees. Jesus' comment in Matthew 23:1-3 is interesting:
:Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."
He didn't object to what they preached. He specifically said it should be practiced. He objected that they did not practice what they preached.
There are thousands of Greek manuscripts of the Gospels, and they all give them the same authors. Those manuscripts pre-date the Catholic Church.
No books of the NT predate the Church. The Church was founded at Pentecost with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit..
That must have been when Peter had his papal coronation ceremony. How did that miss making the papers?
Scripture is not authoritative because it was handed down as tradition by the church, any church.
It's authoritative based on it being by its very nature authoritative as the very word of God.
It's its God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired nature which makes it authoritative, not some stamp of approval given to it by some church.
Hmm. Must have missed something. I didn’t say anything about papal coronation.
It’s only presumption that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost created the CATHOLIC church.
No where in Scripture is the Catholic church ever mentioned.
Simply co-opting the term *church* and claiming that it retroactively means the Catholic church has no basis and is unsubstantiated.
It does not put the claims of the Catholic church as the church Jesus started and being the OTC, beyond dispute.
It's incredible how Catholics insist on giving glory to man and the organizations he creates.
Thank you for the admission of your indoctrination and bad teaching. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to healing it.
And then have you whine about cross posting like you have in the past. And thank you me for proving me correct about not answering.
“...It’s incredible how Catholics insist on giving glory to man and the organizations he creates...”
Catholics give glory to God, not man. Where did you come up with this idea? You are not Catholic so how can you possibly get inside the mind of a Catholic?
From the catechism: God is the author of Sacred Scripture.
“...the books of the Old and New Testament ...written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ... have God as their author...”
This is the actual Catholic belief. You are not qualified to make statements as to what Catholics believe since you are not Catholic and have no authority to interpret Catholic doctrine.
Providing links to back up assertions is not cross linking.
But thank you for demonstrating that you have none.
So your claim can be summarily dismissed.
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