Of course you did, the posts are there to see.. Whether JWs deny the Trinity because the word 'Trinity' isn't in the Bible isn't the point. JWs deny the Trinity as part of their doctrine, their Bible rewrite came later. As for the thought of the Trinity not being in the Bible, the JWs sure thought John 1 served it up, that's why they changed it.
No kidding. And Protestants altered their Bible by deleting seven entire books. Does that mean that the Protestant Bible is not a Bible?
This myth has been destroyed so many times on FR that is has become stereotype.
No, they didn't have to change John 1.1 "to get there".
Of course they did, that fact that they dispute more doesn't disprove that fact. The Satanic Bible is a useful comparison tool. I find it telling that your only example can be from a notoriously non-Christian cultic group.
You claimed that since the JWs were not Christian,
I did, they are, and it wouldn't, which is why they had to make their own. A real Bible would destroy their doctrine on its face, they needed something else for their man-made baloney. In that way they also mirror Catholics that don't rely on the scripture for doctrinal formation and need Tradition to sustain their doctrine.
I had just been going down your answer attending to each bit ie I hadn't read ahead then this: Thank you, you even bolded it. Now finish that sentence.....caused by a subjective, individualistic approach to Scripture divorced from Tradition.
How magnificent is God!
Catholics, are smarter than the God wrote inspired the Bible. They would never try real hard and rewrite scripture, too many witnesses. So create an analogue that only they control, respond as required from the Bible, but when cornered by the Word, shift to Tradition. Make it Holy Tradition to make it more presentable.
You could have added...."to your satisfaction"
I could have, but that would have changed the meaning.
Fits your paradigm of a Christian. Impressive. Is yours the official paradigm?
No, but it is the paradigm I referenced when you first began your list of complaints. Ostensibly, it is what you were warring against. Now you want to move the goal posts and start again? Can you not get to where you want to get within those easy constraints? Now that's a shame.
two people who read Scripture, sincerely
You use that word a lot, does it possess magical powers in Tradition? Since only God can know the heart, Christians can only use the fruits of an action, what are the fruits of 'sincerity?
As I understand it, both groups check the boxes which you've proposed for us for authenticity; "sincere" Bible readers...check. Unencumbered by Catholic errors....check. Claiming assistance of the Holy Spirit....check.
Your list, not mine, is this your paradigm? Couldn't play without having it your way? I'm impressed you added'Catholic errors'. First step is admitting the problem.
So would you say that those who teach a "Rapture", for instance, are unwilling to abide by "the clear words of Scripture". Or is it in fact those who deny the "Rapture" who are unwilling to abide by the "clear words"? Both claim guidance by the Holy Spirit as I understand it. Yet both can't be right, can they? If that's not a worthy topic for discussion, then how about the predestination/no predestination issue? I don't care. There's a million and one examples of Christians "guided by the Holy Spirit" arguing about the Bible's "true" meaning.
Is the salvation of an individual reliant upon the outcome of these topics?
Explain how sola Scripture is not responsible for this confusion.
For this particular discussion, SS doesn't apply, since JWs aren't Christian. SS means that the Word of God is the final and supreme authority of doctrine and practice. One can't prove a negative. OTOH, using SS one can readily understand non-Catholic Christians disagreement with Catholicism's approach to Mary and its Holy Tradition. Neither found in scripture. However to be charitable there is mentioned that Jesus said and did other things. But it then states that the words and deeds recorded were sufficient for one to believe that Jesus is the Christ and have salvation in His Name.
Include in your answer a discussion of who decides whether a group of "so-called Christians" is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Not so-called' at all. Read the Bible. Christians are individuals.
Finally, with regard to the JWs, I'm surprised you didn't mention "the comma". To save me further embarrassment, no doubt.
You have suffered enough.
No. They deny the Trinity because it isn't in the Bible. The Bible says that God's name is Jehovah (Yahweh), not Jesus. The Bible is where it begins. Likewise their teaching about blood transfusions, Jesus being hung on a tree, and many more. This is a direct result of their approach to Scripture. The change in John 1.1 was required as a result of their complete misreading of the rest of Scripture. It didn't cause their errors. It's a result of them.
As for the thought of the Trinity not being in the Bible, the JWs sure thought John 1 served it up, that's why they changed it.
No, the JW alteration of John 1 is unnecessary for their denial of the Trinity. They also deny the Holy Spirit's divinity as simply being the spirit of God.
This myth has been destroyed so many times on FR that is has become stereotype.
Like the Religion forum on FR is some sort of organ of record.
No, but it is the paradigm I referenced when you first began your list of complaints. Ostensibly, it is what you were warring against. Now you want to move the goal posts and start again? Can you not get to where you want to get within those easy constraints? Now that's a shame.
No goal posts have been moved.
The subject is exactly the same as it was at the outset; the dangers of private interpretation of Scripture and the errors to which it leads. Nothing has changed. The JWs are simply a prime example of that. Given the extremes to which this has taken them, your reluctance to accept it as an example is unsurprising.
You dismiss them as being non Christian as if this somehow nullifies the argument when in fact, this is the very point. Indeed they are and they made it to that point through their approach to Scripture.
I listed several other examples off the top of my head involving Christian groups proposing contradictory doctrines as a result of private interpretation and you have no answer, except this:
Is the salvation of an individual reliant upon the outcome of these topics?
Does truth matter? Is the spreading of falsehoods and lies a trivial matter? Can we get to heaven believing any old fable? How many Gospels are there? Is heresy no big deal?
Yes, the salvation of an individual is absolutely reliant upon these things.
You can't ignore the totally fractured nature of American congregationalism so you attempt to minimize it. It's utterly adrift on a sea of individualism and subjectivism. Everyone waves a Bible and claims to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, yet we're either predestined or we're not. We'll either be raptured or we won't. Those who are in error with these teachings are clearly not inspired by the Holy Spirit, despite their protestations to the contrary and their ability to quote Scripture. They are leading people astray.
Which brings us back to a question which you can't and won't answer; How do we know who is and who isn't inspired by the Holy Spirit?" How do we sort the wheat from the chaff? Of the multitude who claim to be so inspired, as best I can tell, you've invented some arbitrary litmus test which involves being "Christian" (so the JWs don't qualify) and then some sort of circular argument which requires them to be "inspired by the Holy Spirit" when that's, in fact, the object of our search.
You have no answer except the fatuous line that "Scripture explains itself" when your lying eyes tell you it doesn't.
For this particular discussion, SS doesn't apply, since JWs aren't Christian. SS means that the Word of God is the final and supreme authority of doctrine and practice.
It doesn't apply? Even though that's how you entered the thread; with the claim that "lib Lutherans" had abandoned God's word (just like the Catholics)? It's the gold standard by which Protestants live or die. It certainly applies. It is the point at issue. JWs are just one extreme example. Since sola scriptura is an error, it's unsurprising that it begets errors. Look around....see what it has caused! You can't ignore it! There is an entire spectrum of wavelengths with the JWs being at one end of it (the far, far infrared), all the way through the various Protestant faith groups to the visible light and ultraviolet. There are the outrageous teachings (such as the JWs) all the way through to the more subtle errors.
You absolutely cannot explain to us the formula for wading through this confused mess of contradictory teachings in order to arrive at the truth.
That's it in a nutshell.