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To: Syncro

Mary’s question to the angel makes no sense unless she had made a vow of virginity. She was already married. If she expected to have relations with her husband in the near future, her question to the angel makes no sense.

Your assertion that Mary was speaking only of the PRESENT MOMENT has no basis in the text. The angel did NOT say that she WAS ALREADY pregnant.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity


165 posted on 12/27/2014 6:34:40 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan; metmom; CynicalBear; Elsie; Syncro; NKP_Vet; one Lord one faith one baptism
Mary’s question to the angel makes no sense unless she had made a vow of virginity. She was already married. If she expected to have relations with her husband in the near future, her question to the angel makes no sense.

Dude....do you read the text or just repeat the talking points?? Is this really what they teach priests in catholic seminaries???

The context of Matthew 1 and Luke 1 will put things in perspective.

There is no vow of chastity in anything Mary said.

When she was told she was going to have a baby she knew she and Joseph had not engaged in sexual intercourse as they were not living together as husband and wife...she also knows they hadn't been having sexual intercourse period nor had she had it with anyone else.....so she's trying to figure out how this is going to happen.

This speaks to the upbringing that both Joseph and Mary had. They were honoring the Law and not committing adultery. Joseph is described as a righteous man by Matthew. We know Mary had a strong upbringing in the things of God by her knowledge of the Scriptures.

Then Gabriel tells her how it will come about. He also tells her Elizabeth is pregnant as well.

When Mary hears this she tells Gabriel, "behold, the bondslave of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word."

Now we turn to the story in Matthew for a timeline and background of Joseph and Mary's relationship.

Matthew 1:19 (NASB)

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Same verse except in Douay-Rheims

Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.

They were considered to be married for all practical purposes except in actual practice. However, we gather from the text they were not living together as husband and wife.

Matthew 1:20 the angel tells Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife.

Matthew 1:24 notes they actually married.

NASB

And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,

Douay-Rheims

And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.

167 posted on 12/27/2014 8:34:52 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Arthur McGowan
Mary’s question to the angel makes no sense unless she had made a vow of virginity.

To you, yes. It would take a lot of deliberate semantic gymnastics to prove that with scriptures. I already asked you for chapter and verse about Mary giving her consent, and you have nothing. So I don't expect to see a scripture proving the "speculation" of a vow either. Hint, it's unBiblical.

She was already married. [You added in another post "by our standards."]

Our standards have nothing to do with it. The standards of the day do though.

I'm not going to spend time explaining the whole process, but here is the condensed version.

Back then it was customary to be espoused for from 3 to 12 months, and then move into a house and start having marital relations.

Espousal was like a contract, and was as binding as marriage, in fact was the first phase of a marriage back then.

But no sex yet. Which was cool, because of the events that took place.

If she expected to have relations with her husband in the near future, her question to the angel makes no sense.

I can't read her mind, can you? There was no indication on her part, or for that matter, on my part that would include "near future" for consummation with her Husband Joseph. She was going to be soon impregnated by the Holy Spirit. That was in the near future.

Your assertion that Mary was speaking only of the PRESENT MOMENT has no basis in the text.

Sure it does. Read my past posts. She plainly stated "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"--Luke1:34.

Which meant she had not ever had relations with a man. Pretty clear. Like I said before, she was a bit confused. Can't blame her, it was some pretty heady stuff for a young girl.

The angel did NOT say that she WAS ALREADY pregnant.

Gee, no kidding. What an off the wall statement, makes no sense. Come on, you didn't think I thought that, did you???

I think it would be good for you to study up on some subjects before you post your interpretations of scripture.

And also history. Like history of marriage back at the time in which Joseph and Mary were married.

Oh your link? No thanks. I have been studying this stuff in depth for years and don't have any desire to be thrown off track with the things you seem to be required to learn/believe.

Taking a clue from the Berean Jews to learn scriptural truths. And to discern what is and isn't true. Like they did with Paul.

173 posted on 12/27/2014 9:47:15 PM PST by Syncro (Jesus Christ: The ONLY mediator between God and man)
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