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To: RnMomof7
The NT is written in greek... and so that is translated.. Rome has changed the definition of presbuteros

But we are not debating the definition of presbuteros but of priest. I do not understand why you cannot accept the fact that the original meaning of priest was indeed presbuteros, and only presbuteros.

Actually it is Rome that is redefining what the word means.

Actually Rome had nothing to do with the English word "priest" taking on the additional meaning of hiereus. At the time, around the 12th century, Rome was still using Latin. They had little knowledge, and no control, over the development of the English language. The fact that the proper word in English for hiereus dropped out of the language and was replaced with the word (priest) that had already been used solely for presbuteros for hundreds of years was the result of the local development of the language. Indeed, it was the English reformers who were redefining words by attempting to remove the original meaning of "priest".

Among the definitions for presbuteros from Vine's Expository Dictionary that you list is: "a term of rank or office … among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably." This office that presided over the assembly continues to exist to the present day. In English this office became known as "priest", a term that was used exclusively for presbuteroi for hundreds of years before being applied to hiereus. That Vine's Dictionary does not include this in its definition is a sign of dishonesty.

Your citations from the KJV carries no weight. The KJV was a new Protestant translation that did not reflect actual English usage. Rather, following Tyndale's example, it was attempting to change English usage by denying the continuity of the Catholic presbyteral priesthood from the NT presbyterate. Its authority for me in this debate is no greater than that of the Douay-Rhiems would be for you.

Again, if you object to "priest" carrying two meanings you should object that hiereus is being translated by "priest." Why not start a campaign to bring back the proper English word for hiereus: "sacerd"? "Priest" originally only meant presbuteros and has had this as its definition for over a thousand years.

313 posted on 01/04/2015 4:20:34 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius; RnMomof7

>> “sacerd” <<

.
Sacerd child molester?

Sacerd pagan sun god cookie breaker?

What does “sacerd” mean?

.


314 posted on 01/04/2015 4:42:51 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Petrosius
But we are not debating the definition of presbuteros but of priest. I do not understand why you cannot accept the fact that the original meaning of priest was indeed presbuteros, and only presbuteros.

Only to Rome..like everything they touch it is twisted and turned into whatever they say it means.. The Holy Spirit choose greek because it is a PRECISE language. There is a clear distinction between

ἀρχιερεύς

Transliteration
archiereus
Pronunciation
är-khē-e-ryü's (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 3:265,349

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. chief priest, high priest

  2. the high priests, these comprise in addition to one holding the high priestly office, both those who had previously discharged it and although disposed, continued to have great power in the State, as well as the members of the families from which high priest were created, provided that they had much influence in public affairs.

  3. Used of Christ because by undergoing a bloody death he offered himself as an expiatory sacrifice to God, and has entered into the heavenly sanctuary where he continually intercedes on our behalf.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 123x
The KJV translates Strongs G749 in the following manner: chief priest (64x), high priest (58x), chief of the priest (1x).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Help

G749

And

ἱερεύς

Transliteration
hiereus
Pronunciation
hē-e-ryü's (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Dictionary Aids

Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 3:257,349

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites

    1. referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews,

  2. metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ

KJV Translation Count — Total: 32x
The KJV translates Strongs G2409 in the following manner: priest (31x), high priest (1x).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Help

G2409

AND the word the HOLY SPIRIT chose for the church

Lexicon :: Strong's G1984 - episkopē ἐπισκοπή Transliteration episkopē Pronunciation e-pē-sko-pā' (Key) Part of Speech feminine noun Root Word (Etymology) From ἐπισκέπτομαι (G1980) Dictionary Aids Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry TDNT Reference: 2:606,244 Outline of Biblical Usage investigation, inspection, visitation that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad oversight overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church KJV Translation Count — Total: 4x The KJV translates Strongs G1984 in the following manner: visitation (2x), bishoprick (1x), office of a bishop (1x). Thayer's Greek Lexicon G1984 G1984

Rome had everything to do with it..they REDEFINED the word..and general usage that became a SECOND MEANING IN ENGLISH ..it still means the exact same thing in greek ..If God had intended a priesthood in the NT church, it would have been CLEARLY defined..as it is in the OT.. but no where do we read of that role in the NT church.. there was no mass, no re-sacrificing of Christ until Rome decided that the "mass" was a sacrifice that required a OT type priest..(300 ad) Before that time Elders (Bishops) traveled between Dioceses to preform baptisms, or marriages.. there were no "priests"

No Greek lexicons or other scholarly sources suggest that "presbyteros" means "priest" instead of "elder". The Greek word is equivalent to the Hebrew zaqen, which means "elder", and not priest. You can see the zaqenim described in Exodus 18:21-22 using some of the same equivalent Hebrew terms as Paul uses in the GK of 1&2 Timothy and Titus. Note that the zaqenim are not priests (i.e., from the tribe of Levi) but are rather men of distinctive maturity that qualifies them for ministerial roles among the people. Therefore the NT equivalent of the zaqenim cannot be the Levitical priests. The Greek "presbyteros" (literally, the comparative of the Greek word for "old" and therefore translated as "one who is older") thus describes the character qualities of the "episkopos". The term "elder" would therefore appear to describe the character, while the term "overseer" (for that is the literal rendering of "episkopos") connotes the job description. (International Standard Version of the Bible)

(ii) Presbyters According to all texts previously quoted the presbyterate is the bishop's advisory council and his support, and constitutes with him a governing body which has a claim to due reverence and obedience while itself subordinate to him (Trallians 12.2; Ephesians 4.1; cf. Polyc., v, 2).(new Advent

The following certain conclusions can be derived from Hermas: (a) The superiors are called presbyters (Vis., ii, 4, 2; Vis., iii, 1, 7, 8; Vis., iii, 11, 3); bishops and deacons (Vis., iii, 5, 1; Sim., ix, 27, 2, bishops alone; Sim., 26, 2, deacons alone), proegoumenoi tes ekklesias Vis., ii, 2, 6); together with protokathedritai (Vis., iii, 9, 7); pastors (pastores; no Greek text; Sim., ix, 31, 5 and 6). (b) Since Hermas has no exact and fixed terminology, no clear distinction can be discovered in his writings between bishops and presbyters. (new Advent)

Mention of bishops by Polycrates In a synodal letter written by Polycrates of Ephesus about the year 190 this bishop, sixty-five years of age, speaks of seven of his relatives who had been bishops before him. Besides these he mentions Polycarp and Papirius of Smyrna, Thraseas of Eumenea, Sagaris of Laodicea and Melito of Sardes (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccles.", v, 24, 2 sq.).(New Advent)

All of this because IN THE GREEK Presbyters means, elder, overseerer or bishop.. not PRIEST.. the early church has no mention of a priesthood


320 posted on 01/04/2015 6:28:07 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Ga 4:16)
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