Posted on 01/06/2015 9:09:15 AM PST by marshmallow
Church closures have reached flood stage in northern Europe. According to the Wall Street Journal (“Europe’s empty churches go on sale”, unfortunately available only to subscribers), some 515 Catholic churches have been closed in Germany over the last decade and it is estimated that two-thirds of the 1600 Catholic churches in the Netherlands will be closed over the next decade. Seven hundred Protestant churches are also slated to close there over the next four years.
This trend creates obvious pressure to repurpose many large, old, expensive and high-maintenance structures. Churches are being converted to civic cultural uses where possible, such as libraries, art galleries, concert halls and fitness centers. St. Joseph’s Catholic church in Arnheim, Netherlands has become a skateboard hall for kids, and of course churches of all denominations have been converted to shops and restaurants.
Even where I am writing, in Manassas, Virginia, we have one old downtown church (not Catholic) which has been a restaurant for years. I do not know whether it is a judgment that no restaurant has ever prospered there, but different proprietors and chefs keep trying.
In England, an Anglican church, with its nice high ceilings, serves as the circus training school for Circomedia. In Scotland, a Lutheran church has become a Frankenstein-themed bar. The hot new idea is to sell unused churches as homes for rich people who abhor the bourgeois boredom of standard dwellings. Considering the spatial volume, old churches come cheap. But it does take money to convert and maintain them.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicculture.org ...
Yet subject we are, right? The Commandments describe our fundamental obligations towards God and neighbor. Failing to fulfill those obligations will condemn us. Or am I missing something?
If you truly love God and love your neighbor, you will fulfill the Ten commandments.
Correct.
"Love" as St. Paul says, is the greatest of the three virtues.
Of course they did...They knew Paul was an apostle chosen by God...They knew his letters were from God...They knew Paul was putting to paper what he had been teaching orally...Just as this scripture which your religion perverts tells us...
2Th_2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Paul was putting to paper that which he was teaching orally...
No, these early Christian communities received them as exactly what they were; letters of spiritual guidance from a human ecclesiastical authority. Namely, the evangelist who brought them the Gospel. That is all.
Nonsense...Paul was chosen personally by God as THE authority to teach the Gentile church...You call the Bible spiritual guidance??? Those words are the 'words' of God...Like God says, 'the blind leading the blind'...
How do you know this??? How do you know they returned to Jerusalem??? Is that a tradition they passed on from one generation to the next???
We know this because that tradition was recorded as scripture by the apostle Paul...And preserved by God for a couple of millenniums so far...You don't have an argument...
The Church teaches Scripture just fine. The Church gave us Scripture. Therefore, the Church is its guardian and faithful interpreter. Your basic model of Scriptural understanding is flawed.
Well, I understand the following scripture...
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
2Ti_2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
So that stuff is a little tough for you, eh??? You Don't Get It...Your religion has to tell you what those scriptures mean and they mean that your religion will provide the understanding, and not God...
Good luck with that...
Well, nope...We all know that the Church is the Catholic religion...Paul never speaks of your religion except in the negative and he never refers to it as the or a church...
Excuse me. They believed "his letters were from God" but the letters carried no authority by virtue of their presence in a book which had been assembled and canonized by the Church and therefore officially designated as inspired by God. The Christians in Corinth were required to make an act of faith in a man and his words. There were undoubtedly many letters exchanged between the various evangelists and nascent Christian communities and Paul's letters were among them.
They knew Paul was putting to paper what he had been teaching orally...Just as this scripture which your religion perverts tells us..
Ahhhh....but it was most certainly not Scripture as you refer to it on this forum. The Christians in Corinth and Ephesus read them as letters from an evangelist. Just as I read a letter from a bishop. Paul's letters gained their authority precisely from who he was and the mission which had been entrusted to him and not from their presence in a sacred book. That is the essential difference.
It was "Paul sez"....and not "da Bible sez..." This is how the Church works, as mentioned above. Through human ecclesiastical authority.
Obligations? No....If it is an obligation it is not love...
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
And God will condemn us if we fail???
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
We all fail, daily...Are you condemned??? When we fall down and drop that cross, Jesus is there to pick us back on, put the cross back on our shoulder and we start again...There is no condemnation for Christians...
And again, we are under no obligation to follow any of the 10 Commandments...All they are is a poster for us to see what they are...
When we are following God's will to love our neighbor, it's good to know we have something to show us we are on the right track...
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
I don't need a Church to tell me this stuff, or what it means...God made sure that he wrote it in simple language that I (or anyone) could understand...
It wasn't "recorded as Scripture by the Apostle Paul". Nothing was "Scripture" when it was "recorded". It became Scripture, subsequently.
The essential point here is the indisputable fact that Paul and Barnabas returned to Jerusalem to resolve a pastoral and theological issue, with the "apostles and ancients" without recourse to a then non-existent New Testament. They could do so by virtue of the authority bestowed on them by Jesus himself. That authority is still to be found in the successors of the Apostles.
You have no argument.
Um....I have obligations to my family. Moral and material. I fulfill those obligations out of love.
It's the same with Christ.
Obligations and love are not incompatible. Dahell you talking about?
We all fail, daily...Are you condemned??? When we fall down and drop that cross, Jesus is there to pick us back on, put the cross back on our shoulder and we start again...There is no condemnation for Christians...
Providing we repent and ask forgiveness. If we persist in our sins and we die in that state, hell awaits.
And again, we are under no obligation to follow any of the 10 Commandments...All they are is a poster for us to see what they are...
If we're under no obligation, then by definition, they're not Commandments.
Only thing killing churches where I live is demographics and congregants dying off
Most churches here are doing well
Especially serious protestant
And with our huge Yankee invasion...again btw.......and all the illegals.... our parishes have grown...more catholic churches anyhow past 20 years...maybe doubled
Metro Nashville
I know someone who lives in an antebellum church building...its a beautiful home...they do it justice
Now that's quite a switch...Usually you guys say no one could read nor write back then so anything written was very rare and scarce...
Ahhhh....but it was most certainly not Scripture as you refer to it on this forum. The Christians in Corinth and Ephesus read them as letters from an evangelist. Just as I read a letter from a bishop. Paul's letters gained their authority precisely from who he was and the mission which had been entrusted to him and not from their presence in a sacred book. That is the essential difference.
Paul was THE apostle...He wasn't a mere bishop...You can bet when churches read his letters, they knew it from the guy doing all the miracles who claimed his oral and written words were from God and you can bet his written words were regarded as something pretty special...
It became scripture when??? It was scripture to Peter...So we know it was scripture before 70 A.D...
That authority is still to be found in the successors of the Apostles.
There is no apostolic authority by successors...That fable was created by the guy who made up the Isidorian Decretals which are known forgeries...
I posted the simple scripture for you...Ignore it at your own peril...
Interesting, as in the original Hebrew text they’re not called “commandments.” They’re called “words” or “things.”
Well “Latin” is TOO HARD to learn.
The Scripture which you posted had absolutely nothing to do with the Ten Commandments. As usual.
There is a false premise which underlies everything which you (and your fellow travelers) post from the letters of St. Paul. Namely, that he was speaking directly to a group of naysayers who had issues with the Catholic Church and who would not appear for another millenium and a half.
He absolutely was not. Paul was simply trying to explain to new Christian converts the necessity of faith in Christ in contrast to the old Jewish law based on works alone. He was not fulminating against the Catholic Church nor negating the 10 Commandments. These were not even issues.
Salvation comes through faith in Christ, the Messiah. That's it.
And faith in Christ most definitely does not negate the Commandments.
Read the Gospels. Read Matthew's account of the last Judgement. Read the parable of the Good Samaritan. Read all of what Paul wrote, especially his treatise on love. Read the letter of James. They all point to the same thing; faith in Christ begets love which begets good works, which are a visible sign of our faith, hope and love. "For I was hungry and and you gave me food....". It is on our love as evidenced by our works on which we will be judged.
Our entry into heaven is dependent on much more than a gut feeling that we're "saved". The bar is set much higher than that.
"You then are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"
The more important issue is the not being with the assembly of believers...Heb 10:25...so you can encourage each other...more so as the Lord's return draws near.
There is a false premise which underlies everything which you (and your fellow travelers) post from the letters of St. Paul. Namely, that he was speaking directly to a group of naysayers who had issues with the Catholic Church and who would not appear for another millenium and a half.
The law is not the Ten Commandments, or the other hundreds of the oracles of God??? So what is the law then??? Which law??? Surely you don't expect anyone to believe you...
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
He absolutely was not. Paul was simply trying to explain to new Christian converts the necessity of faith in Christ in contrast to the old Jewish law based on works alone. He was not fulminating against the Catholic Church nor negating the 10 Commandments. These were not even issues.
That's what you get for listening to your religion's opinion of the scriptures instead of studying them for yourself...
Salvation comes through faith in Christ, the Messiah. That's it.
Not if you're Catholic, it doesn't...Who are you trying to kid??? If you are Catholic, salvation comes by grace (passed out by Mary) thru faith and works...This forum has been going on long enough for us to know that...
And faith in Christ most definitely does not negate the Commandments.
I posted more scripture there for you to ignore or deny...You get to chose one or the other...The law, or grace thru faith without works...And you'd be wise to choose the latter...
Our entry into heaven is dependent on much more than a gut feeling that we're "saved". The bar is set much higher than that.
It certainly is...It is dependent upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ resulting in his death and resurrection...It is not a gut feeling (like so many Catholic claim they get after eating one of them crackers), it's a spiritual comfirmation that is known only by born again believers in Jesus Christ...Apparently you are unfamiliar with that knowledge...
Read the Gospels. Read Matthew's account of the last Judgement.
I suspect I have at least a one up with you on that one...
True, the apostles would attend synagogue on Saturday. Then they would hold a house church assembly on Sunday, the Day of Christ’s Resurrection, to commemorate the Eucharist which Christ as them to do at the Last Supper. “Do this is memory of me.”
“Do this is memory of me.”
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