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To: af_vet_1981
I assume you reject the Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran view of the Eucharist.

A reasonable assumption.  Except it's not that simple. While any view that holds to corporeal realism in the Lord's Supper is a serious deviation from Biblical truth, the Lutherans don't engage in the very late practice of eucharistic adoration.  This is because the Lutherans have no basis for worship of the Eucharistic elements per se. Sacramental Union does not transform the elements in terms of substance.  Rather, it puts the sign and the thing signified in a special relationship to each other, while keeping creature distinct from Creator, thus giving no occasion to even consider an idolatrous view of the elements.  All this runs in their favor.  As far as I am aware, Christianity in all its forms existed for over a thousand years before anyone thought to bend the knee of worship to the wafer as if it were, in itself, Christ bodily present.  

Do you believe
1.those who receive the elements with faith can receive the actual body and blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit which works through the sacrament (Calvin: Receptionism), or


Receptionism is a term I never heard used in Reformed circles, Presbyterian, Christian Reformed, Baptist or otherwise.  I did discover the term is more commonly used among Anglicans, and they are, or at least were at their inception, Catholics sans pope.  I can make no association of the term with Calvin. That doesn't mean there is no such association.  Only that I've never heard of it.

As far as what the Reformed do hold, I believe it is most often called Spiritual Presence, the idea that the communicant is partaking of the body and blood, but that it is by operation of the Holy Spirit drawing the communicant into the presence of Christ in Heaven.  Thus the entire transaction is spiritual, orchestrated by God, not the human administrator, and involves no change of the symbolic elements, other than their meaning.

This is a position I have difficulty seeing in Scripture, but as it provides no occasion for idolatry of the elements, it is no barrier to Christian fellowship.  It is technically classed as a Real Presence position (spiritual is still real), but as that term has largely been hijacked by the Aristotelian materialists, it is perhaps less confusing to designate it as Spiritual Presence.

2.there is no form of any physical or spiritual presence of Jesus in the bread and wine; it is just a remembrance (Zwingli: Memorialism)

With one important correction:  Jesus is always present in a most real way in the fellowship of His Ecclesia. We are His body.  How could He not be present, especially in those moments when we reflect on His sacrifice for us? With that adjustment in mind, this is the position that seems to best accord with Scripture.  John 6 is not a teaching about the Eucharist.  It is a teaching about Jesus, and His capacity to satisfy our spiritual need, if we believe in Him.  Each of the other passages that directly address the Lord's Supper all square with the actual, stated purpose of the Lord's Supper,  which is to remember Him, and proclaim His death till He comes, and no Scripture supports extending that purpose to include the granting by ritual of saving grace.  Not that there is no grant of grace.  There is.  But it is initiated by God Himself, made manifest by faith in Christ, and not ever in consequence of the consumption or worship of man-made food items.  

Peace,

SR

238 posted on 01/29/2015 11:28:24 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Receptionism is a term I never heard used in Reformed circles, Presbyterian, Christian Reformed, Baptist or otherwise. I did discover the term is more commonly used among Anglicans, and they are, or at least were at their inception, Catholics sans pope. I can make no association of the term with Calvin. That doesn't mean there is no such association. Only that I've never heard of it.

I found it explained here:
Five Views of the Eucharist



Roman Catholic

The Eucharist (Greek: 'thanksgiving') is a Sacrament, and like all Sacraments, it conveys grace to all who receive it worthily. The Eucharist also makes present Christ's sacrifice on the Cross in an unbloody manner, for that reason it is sometimes known as the Holy sacrifice of the Mass. Through it, forgiveness of sin may be obtained.

On consecration, the bread and the wine change completely into the actual body and blood of Christ. This change is known as Transubstantiation and Christ's presence in the elements is called the Real Presence.

The Eucharist (Greek: 'thanksgiving') is a Sacrament, and like all Sacraments, it conveys grace to all who receive it worthily. The Eucharist also makes present Christ's sacrifice on the Cross in an unbloody manner, for that reason it is sometimes known as the Holy sacrifice of the Mass. Through it, forgiveness of sin may be obtained. On consecration, the bread and the wine change completely into the actual body and blood of Christ. This change is known as Transubstantiation and Christ's presence in the elements is called the Real Presence.

From the Council of Trent (1545-1563):

"...By the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

Orthodox

The Orthodox church accepts the Eucharist as a Sacrament (though it uses the term 'Mystery' instead of 'Sacrament') and also accepts the doctrines of the Real Presence and the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist. However, it does not make any attempt to explain how the change occurs, preferring to regard it as a divine mystery.

The Eucharistic service is commonly known as the Divine Liturgy.

Lutheran

In Lutheranism, there is a Sacramental Union of the bread and wine with the body and blood of Christ. In other words, Christ's body and blood are present "in, with and under " the forms of bread and wine. This is sometimes known as Consubstantiation (although Luther himself did not use this term).
Luther explained his view by using an analogy of an iron rod placed into a fire: both are united in the red-hot iron, yet both are also distinct.

Lutheranism rejects the view of the Eucharist as "making present" Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.

Reformed and Presbyterian

The Reformed and Presbyterian view derives from the teachings of John Calvin: Christ is not present literally in the elements, but he is spiritually present.

Those who receive the elements with faith can receive the actual body and blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit which works through the sacrament, a view sometimes known as Receptionism.

Calvin explained his view of the Eucharist in his Institutes:

"The rule which the pious ought always to observe is, whenever they see the symbols instituted by the Lord, to think and feel surely persuaded that the truth of the thing signified is also present. For why does the Lord put the symbol of his body into your hands, but just to assure you that you truly partake of him? If this is true let us feel as much assured that the visible sign is given us in seal of an invisible gift as that his body itself is given to us."

Other Groups

Many other groups (e.g. the Baptists) refer to the Eucharist as the Lord's Supper or Holy Communion and deny any form of physical or spiritual presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Rather, the Lord's supper is a remembrance of Christ's suffering and a reminder of his power to overcome sin and death. This view derives from the teachings of the Swiss reformer Ulrich Zwingli and is commonly known as Memorialism.

The Anglican and Methodist Churches have a wide variety of views on this subject.


248 posted on 01/30/2015 6:10:15 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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