Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: RnMomof7
Sorry to jump in lately...

I looked over the previous installment (Part 5), and I noticed this, just at a first glance:
1. Clement of Rome:

And we [Christians], too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
-First Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.4

It does not get much clearer than that. We are justified through faith and not through good works.

That would be called "cherry-picking" and "wishful interpretation", I think... especially given this other quote from the same Pope St. Clement I:
Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.
-First Epistle of Clement, 30.4

You have two choices, I think:

1) Reject Pope St. Clement as a support for your position.
2) Reject "sola fide".

Given that this was from the very first glimpse of your source's material, followed by a 2-minute internet search, I don't think this bodes well for your effort to co-opt Catholic Fathers for specifically Protestant teachings such as "sola fide", "sola Scriptura", etc.
6 posted on 02/06/2015 12:34:55 PM PST by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: paladinan

No need to debate the musings of an unknown writer when Catholics have Aquinas, Newman, Benedict XVI (called By TIME the “theological Einstein of our times”)

Nathan Busenitz serves as an associate pastor and assistant to John MacArthur at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. The author of numerous articles and books, Busenitz also teaches at The Master’s Seminary, and is the managing editor of Pulpit magazine.


7 posted on 02/06/2015 12:39:17 PM PST by Steelfish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies ]

To: paladinan; RnMomof7
You have two choices, I think:

1) Reject Pope St. Clement as a support for your position.
2) Reject "sola fide".

Given that this was from the very first glimpse of your source's material, followed by a 2-minute internet search, I don't think this bodes well for your effort to co-opt Catholic Fathers for specifically Protestant teachings such as "sola fide", "sola Scriptura", etc.

Rather than your excerpt not "boding well" for citing ancient church fathers - and ALL Christians can claim their legacy - in their teaching of faith alone and the sufficiency of God's sacred word, it only deepens the proof that these first Christians had the gospel right from the start. The statement from Clement regarding God's justification by faith apart from our works - which is totally Biblical - doesn't contradict his additional ones regarding the place of works in a believer's life. Nothing the Reformers taught nullifies the very real place of works in a believer's life. What IS the truth from Scripture is that works demonstrate a genuine saving faith and SHOULD BE evident if one claims to be a Christian, but NO works we do can ever merit our salvation nor enable us to keep it, either.

I don't think you do yourselves any service by implying these men were in the habit of saying one thing and then saying something else that canceled out what they previously stated. Isn't it obvious they were talking about two different things? It is to me. Context is key as is laying aside preconceived biases.

What you are doing is the same thing Roman Catholics have been doing ever since the Reformation - trying to claim "unanimous consent of the fathers" while at the same time relying upon the concept of doctrinal development to rationalize why they teach dogmas unheard of by these same early church fathers. So, in reality, it is RCs who have to decide which choice they will make:

1) Claim the early church fathers as support for the RC position of faith AND works for salvation.

2) Disavow the early church fathers' teachings on salvation by faith apart from works.

20 posted on 02/06/2015 8:21:33 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies ]

To: paladinan; RnMomof7
Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words. -First Epistle of Clement, 30.4

You have two choices, I think:
1) Reject Pope St. Clement as a support for your position.
2) Reject "sola fide".

Naw...You're taking it out of context...Clement isn't going to contradict himself...

Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.
For [the Scripture] says, "He that speaks much, shall also hear much in answer. And does he that is ready in speech deem himself righteous? Blessed is he that is born of woman, who lives but a short time: be not given to much speaking."
Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves
; for God hates those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers.

Clement is not talking about God's justification for us...Clement is referring to the person who calls himself a CHRISTIAN who then tries to justify that claim by bragging about the good Christian works he does...

Clement says that when God does good works thru you, don't point your finger at yourself to claim credit...Your works will be seen by others and they will recognize Christ in you...

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

21 posted on 02/06/2015 8:40:55 PM PST by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson