Salvation by grace alone through faith alone excludes works righteousness

Possessing the Treasure ^ | February 16, 2015 | Mike Ratliff

[CynicalBear]

Satan didn't like the answer it is written either.

[CynicalBear]

>>Sorry, I forgot to ping the other people you wanted to hear your answer to the question.<<

Then I'll repeat the answer.

Satan didn't like the answer it is written either.

And I'll add to it.

Satan was trying to set a trap also.

[LearsFool]

Oh, I don’t think anybody here minds quotations from the Scriptures. Surely you don’t mind that I quoted what James wrote, even if it corrects your misunderstanding of the role of works in salvation, do you? After all, that’s what Jesus did to point out the error in Satan’s twisting of Scripture.

Btw, you forgot to “repeat” your answer. I put “repeat” in quotes because you never answered it. Will you answer it? Or do we need to hunt up a Sunday School kid to help you?

[CynicalBear]

>>Surely you don’t mind that I quoted what James wrote, even if it corrects your misunderstanding of the role of works in salvation, do you?<<

Directly from the Greek word for word.

James 2:21 Abraham the father of us not by works was justified having offered Isaac the son of him upon the alter

James 2:22 You see that his faith was working with the works of him and by his works his faith was accomplished.

His works were only the end result of his faith which saved him.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was counted as righteous before he ever did anything. His actions only followed his saving faith.

[LearsFool]

Abraham was counted as righteous before he ever did anything.

Nope. Hebrews 11:8 says otherwise: "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed"

Still no answer to my question? Well, that's okay, because you've still come to see what the role of works is.

You have to answer "No", because you can't help but admit that without the marching, the walls wouldn't have fallen.

Nor can you help but admit that without the dipping in the Jordan, Naaman would've remained a leper.

Nor can you help but admit that without the building of the ark, Noah and his family would've drowned in the flood.

When God issues a command, faith works, and God gives the promised reward. So you understand that for all of these (Abraham, Noah, etc.), "by their works their faith was accomplished", and the promise God wished to give them was achieved by "their faith working with their works."

"And the scripture was fulfilled", and so Abraham's faith was the justifying kind.

But some people don't want to work when God issues a command, so they don't get the promised reward. It's not that they're lazy. It's just that they don't have faith.

So the question for you (no, you don't have to answer this one to anyone but God) is whether you'll do the work God has commanded to "accomplish your faith" and make it the kind that saves. Will your faith be fruitful or barren? Alive or dead? Like the disciple's or like the devils'?

[ScottfromNJ]

“you think that when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and his household, Peter didn’t realize that it was from God”

And what does that tell you? Cornelius and his household received and manifested Holy Spirit “which IS the Baptism’ before Peter performed his water ritual. That ties in to Peter’s realization of Holy Spirit Baptism later in in Acts 11:16, which is consistent with what the Lord says in Act 1:5 and the source of Peter’s realization:

Act 1:5 -

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

The new administration of grace brought on the new baptism in Christ. And what the Lord said here is certainly consistent with what John the Baptist said himself:

Luke 3:16 -

“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire”

Note there’s no mention and inclusion of water.

“you’ve just declared Acts 2:38 to not be from heaven, but of men. And you seem to have dismissed these as well”

The passage really makes no mention of water. Still, you keep sidestepping Peter’s realization of true baptism that came later in Acts 11:16.

“Furthermore, with your interpretation, Peter should have gotten a hold of Philip, and told him to quit performing anymore water baptisms. He failed to stop Paul from baptizing everywhere he went.”

Peter was performing the works that God laid out for him and following God’s path. Apparently God did not assign him the responsibility to go chasing down and correcting other apostles in that regard.

“1Peter 3:20,21 is quite plain,.... 20 “...eight souls were saved by water.”

Here Peter is actually refuting the need for water for salvation, and the passage read correctly with it’s reference to water is actually showing that it’s NOT water that saves.

“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

[boatbums]

I notice you didn't answer the two questions I put to you. Why is that? They're multiple choice, so all you need to do is give the letters. It only takes a couple of keystrokes. :-)

Oh, but I DID answer your questions. If you want a "simple" letter answer, then perhaps you need to pose better questions.

Yes, I've seen people cite the "not of works" Scriptures to try and prove that God expects only faith. The trouble is a confusion as to what "works" means in the various places the Bible writers used the term. Since Abraham was justified by faith after working, James concludes that his works made his faith perfect.

People cite Scriptures because they are the final answers of God to the questions we have. I've seen the Roman Catholic hedge of presuming the "works" Paul is talking about that don't justify are works of the law of Moses and not the other kind of works Catholics list that are outside of the Mosaic law. However, what they fail to acknowledge is that Paul DOES speak about ALL works of righteousness which we do - whether of the law or not. He says:

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. (Titus 3:4-8)

I would remind you also that Paul EVEN addresses the case of a person who does not do good works and says that it is STILL by faith that we are justified:

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”


Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. (Romans 4:1-13)

Abraham was NOT justified by faith after working, that is a mischaracterization of what Scripture says and is disproved by the passage cited above, as well as others. When James refers to Abraham's faith being "perfected", he is talking about completeness, not the quality of his faith as if his faith was imperfect. Paul says so.

Does James' understanding of works conflict with Paul's? No, Paul is speaking of different sort of works in many passages. And so are you when you say, "We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works."

Of course James doesn't conflict with Paul, it's the SAME Holy Spirit carrying them along as they wrote. I think it is your own misunderstanding, and those who join with you in your insistence of works added to faith being what justifies and the false dichotomy of works of the law vs. works of righteousness. Instead, James is addressing how others see our faith in action. Does God NEED to see our works in order to accept our faith for salvation? No. To presume He does is blasphemy as it assumes God is not omniscient - all knowing.

What I'm trying to get you to focus on is the role works play in faith. It's not that they "contribute to our justification", as you put it. It's that they make our faith a justifying faith.

What I'm trying to get you to focus on is that our works play NO role in our justification before God. They are evidence to others as well as ourselves of the caliber of the faith we profess and they are the way through which God blesses us in this life and how we witness to a fallen world of the power of faith. Scripture says Abraham received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised and that is the place of the rite of water baptism today. Neither circumcision nor water baptism are of themselves the cause of justification but a "sign" and a "seal" of genuine faith and an outward testimony of what we have entrusted to Christ.

It's impossible to separate this sort of faith from works. Read James 2 again. To say that this faith exists separate from works is an error. The only faith that exists separate from works is the dead faith such as the devils have. Is that what you have? Or do you have a working faith?

Who is trying to separate genuine faith from the resulting acts of faith? Do demons have the ability to have justifying faith? NO. Jesus didn't die for demons, but for humanity. Do demons believe Jesus is God incarnate? Yes, because that is true whether they like it or not.

All we're trying to do here is show how there is NOTHING we do that can justify us before God, ONLY the blood of Christ takes away our sins. We receive God's gift by faith and He saves us not because of our works of righteousness but because of His mercy. Remember:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26)

[CynicalBear]

Basing an entire belief or dogma on one single verse causes them all types of error doesn’t it.

[boatbums]

sure does!

[LearsFool]

Oh, but I DID answer your questions. If you want a "simple" letter answer, then perhaps you need to pose better questions.

Questions, questions. People want "better questions", but they don't want to answer them.

Well, fine, we'll see if these are "better" enough to please you:

What causes sins to be forgiven?
A. Faith
B. God's grace
C. Jesus' sacrifice
D. Baptism
E. Confession of Christ
F. All of the above

Which is unnecessary for sins to be forgiven?
A. Faith
B. God's grace
C. Jesus' sacrifice
D. Baptism
E. Confession of Christ
F. None of the above

[LearsFool]

Yes, especially when you make a mistake like thinking a word (”works”, for instance) always means the same thing.

(I notice there’s ONE word you don’t make that mistake with. That word means whatever you want it to mean.)

[CynicalBear]

It is written “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

[LearsFool]

It is written "Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." James 2:24

So you see, either Paul is wrong, or James is wrong, or you're wrong in assuming that "works = works" everywhere the word is found in the Bible.

[CynicalBear]

>>So you see, either Paul is wrong, or James is wrong,<<

Nope, neither is wrong. It's your understanding of what James is saying. And I do believe boatbums already explained it to you so I'll not deal with you any longer on it.

[LearsFool]

Nope, neither is wrong.

That's true, neither Paul nor James is wrong. They're simply using "works" in different ways. Once you admit that, you'll be able to learn from them.

[boatbums]

Nope, not any better! Preloaded to get the gotcha answer is no way to ask questions honestly. I don't know why you continue to play this game. If you want to believe that your actions added to your faith are what saves you, go ahead and trust in that. You will have to ask, though, in what are you trusting to save you? Your works or Jesus' work?

It's either grace OR works, not both. If it is by grace, then it's not by works because grace wouldn't BE grace. And if it is by works, then it is not by grace because works wouldn't BE works. See Romans 11:6.

[CynicalBear]

Interesting how it always comes down to the fact they have to make a choice.

[LearsFool]

The answer to both questions is F. But I'll bet you knew that already. Why you dodge that is another question altogether.

In God's mercy, He accepted the Son's sacrifice on our behalf. Is that all there is to it? (Ak! Another question! But rather than wait for an answer, I'll press on.)

No, that's not all there is to it. Did the ark save everyone from the flood? Or only those with faith? Why, only those with faith, of course. Likewise, God tells us we must either turn to Him in faith or else be lost.

Noah preached for 100 years and could only find 7 people with enough faith to join him on the ark. Did their faith save them? Yes. Did the ark save them? Yes. Did God save them? Yes. Did water save them? Yes. Did their getting in the ark save them? Yes.

The false teacher who wrote the OP's article would eliminate some of the things which saved Noah and his family. If he had been around back then, he wouldn't have gotten into the ark, let alone help build it. He doesn't have enough faith in God. Instead, he'd have spent his time trying to dissuade Noah's family from getting into the ark.

Those who likewise persist in propagating this false "faith-only" gospel are just like him. Not only do they not understand how faith works in baptism to receive God's grace, they lack the faith to simply do whatever God commands. Instead, they come up with elaborate explanations for NOT doing what God says. And not only do they lack faith, like the pied piper they lead others down the same road to perdition.

"For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." - II Timothy 3:6-7

Whether their false teaching springs from a zeal and vehemence against the false religion of Catholicism, or whether it has some other originating source, is beside the point. They preach a false gospel, and spew lying promises of salvation.

If you've fallen prey to their seductive lies, I hope you'll turn back to the Scriptures of God and seek out the truth.

[LearsFool]

Oh you don’t seem to mind making a choice. It’s having the disguise stripped away from you choice by a plain question that seems to bother you.

Your choice is: “Joshua and the Israelites didn’t really need to march around Jericho.”

Your choice is: “Noah didn’t really need to build an ark.”

Your choice is: “Naaman didn’t really need to dip in the Jordan.”

Your choice is: “The Israelites didn’t really need to put the blood on the doorpost.”

Your choice is: “People don’t really need to have their sins washed away.”

What would’ve happened to all those people if they had listened to you instead of God? What will happen to someone today if he listens to you instead of God?

[CynicalBear]

Do Catholics know nothing other than twisting words and accusing people of saying something they didn’t? I’ll leave you in your delusion.