Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer
I’m thinking that not many of them realize how obligated they are to submit their intellect and will to that church rather than to Christ.
They worship a church of their own making.
Some of these passages involve necromancy or “spiritualism,” which is NOT prayer. So those are irrelevant.
Some of the passages are about death FROM AN ENTIRELY EARTHLY POINT OF VIEW. They are not about life after death (pro or con) but about the FINALITY of death from our earthbound perspective.
Even granting that the rest of the passages are to be taken literally, there remains this question:
You believe that the Hebrew or Jewish belief at any given moment in the many centuries before Christ was the final, fully-developed truth?
It says "or who consults the dead" Arthur. That disconnected it from necromancy or spiritualism. Catholics "consult the dead". Catholics denying it doesn't change the truth.
It wasn't what the Hebrew or Jewish belief was. It was what God said.
You have not shown one shred of evidence that those who have passed from this life are included in those we should have pray for us.
It's no different then the Mormons or JWs.
Sometimes I try to just and listen.
An interesting analogy. If I may expand on it a bit. God is a consuming fire for sin. The same fire that burns is also our greatest companion to warm us on a cold night. That is the Grace of God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Catholics "consult the dead" Arthur. God said not to.
You have not shown one shred of evidence that those who have passed from this life are included in those we should have pray for us.
You have not shown one shred of evidence that those who have passed from this life are included in those we should have pray for us.
I think it’s sad that personal attacks have to have to be used because of no scriptural support.
Just like liberal dimocrats...when you’ve lost the argument, go personal or change the topic.
The problem with this article is that the author started with a premise, and then sought out verses to reinforce his preconceived narrative. That is not how you handle God’s Word. You study God’s Word and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal His Truth. The other major flaw in his “my religion can beat up yours” piece is a failure to rightly divide God’s Word. For instance, you cannot apply what was written to Jews living under the Old Covenant, to the Body of Christ. What remains is a disjointed column that causes confusion and sows even more division among Believers.
The Bible is written FOR the Body of Christ. But not all of it is written ABOUT or TO the Body of Christ. In this present Age of Grace, there are three groups - Jews, Gentiles (nations), and Believers (Body of Christ or The Church - not a man-made religious denomination). You must know to which group you belong, and determine who Scripture addresses.
The entire scope of Matthew is announcing the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven to Israel. The Kingdom of Heaven is a temporal kingdom prophesied throughout the OT and exclusive to Israel. The Sermon on the Mount, which includes this prayer, is most definitely KOH teaching. How do you know? Well, let’s take a brief inventory.
Does your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees?
Have you ever called someone a fool? You are in danger of hell fire.
Have you looked at a woman (or man if it applies) lustfully? You have committed adultery in your heart.
Do you turn the other cheek? Do you relinquish all your goods when you are sued?
Do you do your alms before men in the SYNAOGUE?
Do you pray in the SYNAGOGUE to be seen by men, and on street corners using vain repititions?
Do you take thought for your life, what you shall eat or drink? Do you store things in a barn or bank?
What about your clothes?
Do you judge others, or attempt to remove the mote out of your brother’s eye before removing the beam in your own?
All of those should at least raise a caution flag for a Believer, part of the Body of Christ.
Let’s look at the prayer itself. Do you see anything missing? Doesn’t it seem a bit odd that this prayer never invokes the name of Jesus? (John 16:23-25) But wait, there’s more!
Why would a Believer pray for the Kingdom of Heaven? Think carefully before answering. The KOH was promised and rejected by Israel. It was offered again after the Resurrection, and again rejected. It is now postponed until the Tribulation, where everything in this prayer, and the Sermon on the Mount, will again be applicable.
“Give us this day our daily bread.” This is not just literal bread, but God’s Word, because man lives by every Word of God. Isn’t this at odds with Jesus’ teaching in John? I thought His Words were to abide in us? (John 15:1-11) And that if we kept his Words, God would dwell in us. (John 14:24) Hmmm.
“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive others.” The entire article stakes its claim here, so let’s explore this a bit. Forgiveness here is based on Law and not Grace. Its not based on mercy, but merit. That makes sense for the Jew living under the Law, but what about the Body of Christ? What does Paul write? And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:32 KJV - see also Colossians 3:12-17) Note the tense - hath forgiven you, and the reason for it - Christ’s sake. Believers don’t forgive others because they have to, its because they want to - its motivated by Love Himself. Love is the motivation for everything, not Law. Its the Fruit of the Spirit that is produced naturally as the Believer matures in the Truth. And if there was any doubt, Paul puts the hammer down in Ephesians 2. There can be NO DOUBT as to the meaning here.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Let’s look at Romans 8 - There is NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ Jesus. The Body of Christ is DEAD to sin, and made alive IN CHRIST. Their standing is very different from the Jew attempting to keep the Law. And remember, the BOC is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, male or female, but ONE BODY with Jesus as the Head.
This is only complicated to the religious, who are determined to keep you in bondage, never allowing you to enjoy the Love and Freedom that comes IN CHRIST. If led by the Spirit, you are a child of God, made alive in Christ and seated in Heavenly Places. God’s Love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5)
The Church was a Mystery, hidden in God and not revealed until Paul received the revelation of the Body of Christ, and then given the mandate to teach it. Even a cursory understanding of Paul’s letters should lead you to question how this prayer could be applied to a child of God. (Ephesians 3)
“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” For mature Believers, that statement makes little sense. Believers are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, walking in the Spirit they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Believers have the Word of God (armor and sword), the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the authority to overcome everything the enemy throws at them. (Luke 10:19, Romans 8: 26-39, Galatians 5:13-18, Ephesians 6, 1 Peter 5:6-11, 1 John 5:1-5)
The Believer has been delivered from sin and death. No longer servants, or even friends, but children of God. Believers are fearless because - God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7)
Romans 8:10-16 (KJV)
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Let’s wrap this up. Look carefully at the Sermon on the Mount, the teaching on prayer and forgiveness specifically, and compare it to Jesus’ teaching in John 14-17. You can see some stark differences even between these two. Note what John writes - Jesus calls his followers friends now instead of servants. (John 15:13-17). Consider that for a moment. The relationship between man and God is in transition as Jesus prepares to go to the cross. They are now clean through the words he speaks. He gives the example of the vine and the branches as a new relationship is emerging. And most importantly, Jesus defers to the coming Comforter, who will lead them into all Truth. Many things would not make sense until after the cross, and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It would be the task of the HS to unveil further revelation, and assist their understanding of Scripture.
The Lord’s prayer was relevant to the Jews at that moment, when the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, and not yet rejected by Israel. And in the future during the Tribulation, at the end of man’s judgment and the start of the Lord’s Day, it will be relevant again, as the Age of Grace will have ended. However, attempting to apply it as a lesson for the Body of Christ, or a means to attack Believers, lands you squarely, and deeply, in the religious ditch.
The passage I cited from JPII will help you understand in a more practical, human way the Catholic perspective on the relationship among Christ, the Magisterium and the ordinary Christian faithful, how the Church's "charge is to announce and teach authentically that truth which is Christ", how the Magisterium "does not bring to the Christian conscience truths which are extraneous to it" and how, because the truths it brings is the Truth of Christ, "the authority of the Church, when she pronounces on moral questions, in no way undermines the freedom of conscience of Christians".
By the way, if you are curious to learn more about the Magisterium, conscience and Christ's teaching's from a Catholic perspective, I wholeheartedly recommend reading all of Saint JPII's Veritatis Splendor sometime. There are some really beautiful passages in there, such as this one:
The light of God's face shines in all its beauty on the countenance of Jesus Christ, "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15), the "reflection of God's glory" (Heb 1:3), "full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14). Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). Consequently the decisive answer to every one of man's questions, his religious and moral questions in particular, is given by Jesus Christ, or rather is Jesus Christ himself, as the Second Vatican Council recalls: "In fact,it is only in the mystery of the Word incarnate that light is shed on the mystery of man. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of the future man, namely, of Christ the Lord. It is Christ, the last Adam, who fully discloses man to himself and unfolds his noble calling by revealing the mystery of the Father and the Father's love".
Has anyone in the RCC ever said why your church is not call the Roman Christian Church? Why the undying attachment to the word “Catholic” and detachment from the word “Christ-ian” in how you identify your church to the world?
The Reformation never claimed to contradict the Lord’s Prayer, nor do I find evidence of the contrary. The comparisons are non sequitor.
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