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To: Iscool
"The only thing that seems to be implied is, for example, when you pray to one of your saints to find your car keys is that the presumed connection between the saint and Jesus automatically gives that saint Godly attributes."

It's good you brought up the question of "implicit" meaning, and connections which are "presumed," because to the Catholic, the implicit meaning is "intercession" and the presumed connection is "prayer within the Communion of Saints," the Body of Christ of which Christ is always Head, whether or not that is stated.

We must, in fact, depend upon Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ as the one meaning-controlling context which defines the whole process of intercessory prayer. Once you have that firmly in mind, the rest follows automatically.

Notice how Paul says,
(1 Corinthians 12:21)
"The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don’t need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don’t need you!'"

We all need each other because we have all been placed where we are --- in ongoing, continuous, vital connection with each other --- by the Lord.

This is the governing reality of it, this Mystical Body of Christ, this blessed Communion of Saints.

There is a constant sharing of spiritual goods; as cells, tissues, organs, systems, limbs and senses we are all joined in the Body of Christ; at no point can we say "I have no connection with you; we don't communicate; I don't need you."

And a person doesn't lose the ability to intercede, or cease to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!

224 posted on 03/24/2015 12:50:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Point of One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic information)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
And a person doesn't lose the ability to intercede, or cease to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!

Who says?

227 posted on 03/24/2015 12:54:46 PM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
We must, in fact, depend upon Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ as the one meaning-controlling context which defines the whole process of intercessory prayer. Once you have that firmly in mind, the rest follows automatically.

Why all of a sudden is that true??? That would be sola scripture...You guys don't depend on much of any scripture for truth...You pick and chose which scriptures you want to believe...Why this one???

251 posted on 03/24/2015 2:31:28 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool
This is the governing reality of it, this Mystical Body of Christ, this blessed Communion of Saints. There is a constant sharing of spiritual goods; as cells, tissues, organs, systems, limbs and senses we are all joined in the Body of Christ; at no point can we say "I have no connection with you; we don't communicate; I don't need you." And a person doesn't lose the ability to intercede, or cease to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!

Just consider this for a moment...when we ask other believers to pray for us or our loved ones (as many of us did for you when you were in need recently), we are really asking them to not only join us in our beseeching of our Lord, we are enjoining them to the blessings that come from answered prayer. Such participation with each other and our common needs help to build that communion of the saints (each and every believer). However, asking the dead saints to intercede for us must presuppose two things - that they are somehow cognizant of what we are each going through in this time and place and that they are able to take these requests before the throne of grace and know what is God's perfect will for each and every one of us and each and every one of our requests. We have to assume they have heard us and delivered our request - without ever having heard, seen, touched or experienced their existence.

I can see quite clearly the purpose God has for why He encourages us to pray for one another IN THIS LIFE. We are part of each other's lives and ministries and share in the joys and sorrows as we walk together in fellowship with other believers and our Lord and Savior. Our faith is strengthened and grows as we see answered prayer and our lives interchange as we grow together in faith. But...praying to the dead gives us no such encouragement or fellowship. We don't see, hear or touch those who have died - we can only HOPE they can do these things - and we have to presume they hear us and can intercede for us with no feedback from which to know we have gotten through. I don't see how that encourages us or builds our faith - especially when such prayers are NOT answered in the way we request.

Since we all agree it is Almighty God who ultimately answers our prayers - and His power IS omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent - how is invoking the dead in Christ and involving them in this process any more desirable or necessary than asking the living in Christ for the same need? Do they communicate with us and let us know our request has been heard? Do they have some special "IN" or influence before God that our brothers and sisters in Christ don't have? Is God a respecter of persons even though He says He is not?

To me, what this boils down to is the benefit of prayer and who it is that truly deserves ALL the glory and praise. It cannot be humans - dead or living - but God alone who is worthy of praise. We must obey Him and follow His commands regarding how and to whom we are to pray. We have His sacred word to guide us and Jesus' example was that we pray to our Father in heaven and not to any other. It is to Him that we entrust all our hopes, needs and desires because He knows our needs before we even ask. Having fellow believers join with us in specific prayer requests joins us in faith and love for one another in this life and we rejoice as we see our God working in our lives to conform us ever closer to the image of Christ.

282 posted on 03/24/2015 10:10:16 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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