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1 posted on 03/28/2015 7:24:04 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

Romanists can’t write an article about their interpretations without at the exact same time denigrating everyone else.


2 posted on 03/28/2015 7:37:00 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: NKP_Vet

Is Jesus made of wood?


3 posted on 03/28/2015 7:41:32 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NKP_Vet; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...

This is simply redundant Romanism. So how many times must your your pasted polemics be exposed as specious? Its coming by God's grace. Better get the thread locked now!

8 posted on 03/28/2015 8:13:34 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: NKP_Vet
Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.
later
How is it you do not understand I did not speak to you of bread?but you should beware of the leaven of thepharisees and Saducees?

Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Saducees.

10 posted on 03/28/2015 8:19:16 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: NKP_Vet

Excellent article.


12 posted on 03/28/2015 8:21:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet
The ONE reason why the Bread of Life Discourse HAD to be metaphor:

The bread didn't change into human flesh and the wine didn't change into human blood.

16 posted on 03/28/2015 8:25:43 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: NKP_Vet
This is simply redundant Romanism. So how many times must your your pasted polemics be exposed as specious?

1) From the nature of the words used One specially notes the realistic expressions “true” and “real” referring to the “food” and “drink” which is our Savior’s body and blood.

Wrong. In the very same book leading up to Jn. 6 the Lord said that eternal life was obtained by "drink," and that doing His Father's will was His "meat." (Jn. 4:24) For indeed, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)

And which Jn. 6:57 corresponds to:

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (John 6:57)

And which was said to explain how we are to live by consuming Christ, which John and the rest of Scripture nowhere says is by literally physically eating anything, but by receiving and believing His word in our innermost being, which word is the only thing that is said to "nourish" the believer spiritually, (1Tim. 4:6) and which builds him up. (Acts 20:32)

In addition, David plainly and distinctly said drinking water was the blood of men, and thus would not drink it, but poured it out on the ground as an offering to the Lord, as it is forbidden to drink blood.

And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord . And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. (2 Samuel 23:16-17)

Thus, consistent with the Catholic "plain language" hermeneutic, this must by taken literally, and explained by some metaphysical philosophy. But which abundant use of figurative language the apostles would have been familiar with. .

Thus the "realistic expressions" polemic does not warrant its conclusions

2) From the biblical usage of the figure “to eat one’s flesh” In the language of the Bible, to eat another’s flesh or to drink his blood in the metaphorical sense is to persecute him, to bring him to ruin and to destroy him.

Wrong, as the apologist has just displayed his ignorance of Scripture in not knowing of David calling drinking water the blood of his noble men, who essentially laid down their lives for David.

In addition, it is irrelevant whether the use of “to eat one’s flesh” is in the negative sense, as the point is that such language is used metaphorically. Paul said the same thing to believers as the Philistines said to each other in "quit you like men, be strong," (1Co. 16:13; cf. 1Sam. 4:9) but the former is not disallowed by the latter.

Moreover, Christ was brought to a type of ruin, and Moses said that the Canaanites were “bread for Israel: “Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us” (Num. 14:9)

And other examples of such metaphorical language include:

The Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof.” (Num. 13:32)

David said that his enemies came to “eat up my flesh.” (Ps. 27:2)

And complained that workers of iniquity ”eat up my people as they eat bread , and call not upon the Lord.” (Psalms 14:4)

And the Lord also said, “I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord.” (Zephaniah 1:3)

While even arrows can drink: “I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh ; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.' (Deuteronomy 32:42)

But David says the word of God (the Law) was “sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. (Psalms 19:10)

Another psalmist also declared the word as “sweet:” “How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!” (Psalms 119:103)

Jeremiah likewise proclaimed, “Your words were found. and I ate them. and your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart” (Jer. 15:16)

Ezekiel was told to eat the words, “open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee...” “eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” (Ezek. 2:8; 3:1)

John is also commanded, “Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it.” (Rev. 10:8-9 )

And which use of figurative language for Christ and spiritual things abounds in John, using the physical to refer to the spiritual:

In John 1:29, Jesus is called “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” — but he does not have hoofs and literal physical wool.

In John 2:19 Jesus is the temple of God: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” — but He is not made of literal stone.

In John 3:14,15, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) who must “be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal” (vs. 14, 15) — but He is not made of literal bronze.

In John 4:14, Jesus provides living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life,” — but which was not literally consumed by mouth.

In John 7:37 Jesus is the One who promises “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” — but believers were not water fountains, but He spoke ”of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive.” (John 7:38)

In Jn. 9:5 Jesus is “the Light of the world” — but who is not blocked by an umbrella.

In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,” and “the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11) — but who again, is not literally an animal with cloven hoofs.

In John 15, Jesus is the true vine — but who does not physically grow from the ground nor whose fruit is literally physically consumed.

Therefore the metaphorical use of language for eating and drinking is well established, and which again, the apostles would have been familiar with, and would have understood the Lord's words by, versus as a radical new requirement that contradicted Scripture, and required a external Aristotelian type of metaphysical explanation to justify.

3) From the reactions of the listeners The listeners understand Jesus to be speaking in literal truth – How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (John 6:53) – and Jesus does not correct them, as he had done previously in the case of misunderstandings (cf. John 3,3; 4:32; Matthew 16:6).

Wrong again, as in Jn. 2:19,20, the Lord spoke in a way that seems to refer to destroying the physical temple in which He had just drove out the money changers, and left the Jews to that misapprehension of His words, so that this was a charge during His trial and crucifixion by the carnally minded. (Mk. 14:58; 15:29) But the meaning was revealed to His disciples after the resurrection.

Likewise, in Jn. 3:3, the Lord spoke in such an apparently physical way that Nicodemus exclaimed, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (John 3:4)

And in which, as is characteristic of John, and as seen in Jn. 6:63, the Lord goes on to distinguish btwn the flesh and the Spirit, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) leaving Nicodemus to figure it out, requiring seeking, rather than making it clear. Which requires reading more than that chapter, as with Jn. 6, revealing being born spiritually in regeneration. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13; 2:5)

Likewise in Jn. 4, beside a well of physical water, the Lord spoke to a women seeking such water of a water which would never leave the drinker to thirst again, which again was understood as being physical. But which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirer who stayed the course, but which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.

And thus we see the same manner of revelation in Jn. 6, in which the Lord spoke to souls seeking physical sustenance of a food which would never leave the eater to hunger again. Which again was understood as being physical, but which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirers who stayed the course. But which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.

In so doing the Lord makes living by this "bread" of flesh and blood as analogous to how He lived by the Father, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." (John 6:57)

And the manner by which the Lord lived by the Father was as per Mt. 4:4: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

And therefore, once again using metaphor, the Lord stated to disciples who thought He was referring to physical bread, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

And likewise the Lord revealed that He would not even be with them physically in the future, but that His words are Spirit and life:

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:62-63)

But as with those who imagined the Lord was referring to the physical Temple, the Lord left the protoCatholics to go their own way, who seemed to have yet imagined that the Lord was sanctioning a form of cannibalism, or otherwise had no heart for further seeking of the Lord who has "the words of eternal life" as saith Peter, not the flesh, eating of which profits nothing spiritually.

From the interpretation of the Fathers and the Magisterium Finally, we can recognize that this text is not to be understood as a metaphor from the interpretation of the Fathers, who ordinarily take the last section of the Bread of Life Discourse as referring to the Eucharist

Wrong on more than one count, as first, Augustine is not even teaching what the RC quotes him here as doing, from what i could find, but in context in his ill-defined rambling discourse (which is what it would be seen as if posted here by one of us) he says, "it is said "the flesh profiteth nothing" in the same manner as it is said that "knowledge puffeth up... Therefore add thou to knowledge charity, and knowledge shall be profitable...so here also, "the flesh profiteth nothing" only when alone. Let the Spirit be added to the flesh, as charity is added to knowledge, and and it profiteth very much." "If the apostles' flesh profited us, could it be that the Lord's flesh should have profited us nothing?.... Whence should writing come to us? All these are operations of the flesh, but only when the Spirit moves it, as if it were its organ. "We are united by faith, quickened by understanding...." This is what is meant by the ministration of Christ's body and blood.

Nor is Cyril manifestly teaching the RC "Real Presence" in the other quote, at least not there. Secondly, these uninspired men are not Scripture, nor is the often claimed “unanimous consent of the fathers even a literal reality, while we have freely available only a small portion of all the 20 or so are estimated to have written.

And paradoxically it seems that the collections we have available were compiled by Protestants.

Instead of these men being as Scripture, they often passed on erroneous traditions of men that are not in Scripture and even contrary to it.

Finally, nor does Rome take their word as gospel, but judges them more than they judge them. For Rome is her own autocratic authority, while her own basis for that, that of the premise of perpetual ensured magisterial infallibility, is unScriptural, and unseen and unnecessary in the life of the church, as is her separate class of believers distinctively titled "priests," offering up "real" human flesh and blood as a sacrifice for sin, and literally consuming this to obtain spiritual life, around which act all else revolves, and looking to Peter as the first of a line of exalted infallible popes reigning over the church from Rome, and a separate class of believers distinctively titled "saints," and praying to created being in Heaven, and being formally justified by ones own sanctification/holiness, and thus enduring postmortem purifying torments in order to become good enough to enter Heaven, and saying rote prayers to obtain early release from it, and requiring clerical celibacy as the norm. Etc.

54 posted on 03/28/2015 9:36:09 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: NKP_Vet

Once again, all that the Christians of FR can manage to do is fight with each other and put each other down.

Is this the Love Jesus preached to us?


69 posted on 03/29/2015 12:13:03 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free (Free goodies for all -- Freedom for none.)
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To: NKP_Vet
Most, though not all, Protestants wiggle and fidget as they come to the Bread of Life Discourse in the sixth chapter of the Gospel according to St. John

Actually, most Protestants ... by the time they get to verse 56 in John 6 have already understood the message of the entire passage, which Christ has already mentioned a half dozen times.

Whereas your average Roman does not even bother to read the discourse in context ... and thus they adhere to worst reading possible ... in which whole generations of Catholics have been lost.

71 posted on 03/29/2015 2:44:25 AM PDT by dartuser
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To: NKP_Vet

So He told a mass of unsaved people He had jut rebuked to eat His flesh

I do not thank so


76 posted on 03/29/2015 5:48:26 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: NKP_Vet
There are four reasons why our Savior’s words in John 6:26-72 cannot CAN be understood as an analogy or a metaphor.


 John only has 71 verses... (Picky; for the D-R splits verse 51 into two verses)   (Or the KJV combines 51&52)  let's fight over which is right in another thread.
 
 

1. Jesus' actual flesh is long gone into Heaven.
2. "This is my flesh" is kinda mindboggling since His FLESH was holding BREAD and speaking at the time.
3. Jesus used a LOT of analogies and methphors in His ministry; why single THIS one out for special treatment?
4. They were having a YEARLY meal of REMEMBERANCE; which PROPHISIED the Messiah's coming.
Kinda hard to eat what ain't around.
Kinda hard to have TWO sets of flesh at the same time.
Kinda hard to reason with VIPERS and WHITEWASHED tombs; or even dogs!
No wonder folks were confused; for they'd been eating the symbolic 'flesh' of the Messiah all along and never realized it!
John 6:26-71  KJV
 
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven:
 
 if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:25-72    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 Jesus answered them, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed.
28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered, and said to them:
This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou shew, that we may see, and may believe thee? What dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world.
34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.
35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.
40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.
41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.
60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.
61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?
62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.
66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.
68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
71 Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil?
72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

95 posted on 03/29/2015 3:31:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NKP_Vet
John 6:40 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Do Catholics take this literally, too?

Do they become hungry and thirsty after eating Jesus? Why not take that literally as well?

106 posted on 03/30/2015 10:25:51 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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