Posted on 03/30/2015 7:11:21 PM PDT by grumpa
Pot has been legalized along with other psychdelics.
“What the hell does it mean?”
Hell may be the operative word. Seriously, pretirism is a belief that all biblical prophecies specific to Christ’s return and his coming rule upon the Earth have already been fulfilled. Some deny Israel’s importance in the end of days as they feel the Church is the replacement “Israel”. There are some variations of belief in the pretirist camp. Christ is said by some to return and collect his living and dead followers and then the rest of the world is judged...boom the end...new heaven and new Earth after the white throne judgment. As I said there is some variation. The pretirists ignore half of Revelation and OT prophecy...assigning most of it as little understood symbolism or as some how as historically fulfilled. Just remember...there has been no universal number(666) system yet though Revelation states one will occur. The OT speaks of a third temple in the last day and Revelation mentions it. No big asteroid collisions or 100 lb hail stones mixed with fire have happened yet though Revelation and Ezekiel specifically calls for such to occur.
Read Revelation flat out asking God to guide you...you won’t understand everything but the plainness of what physically is to come will stand out from the other symbolism in the book. If you understand history you will note that many things in Revelation and other passages have not happened yet or are just now unfolding now in front of our eyes.
Israel became a nation in 1948...Pretirist writers back then were denying such would happen, when just like “a thief sneaking into the back room of world politics”, she was made a nation again!
many things in Revelation and other passages have not happened yet or are just now unfolding now in front of our eyes
1) what is good is evil and what is evil is good.
2) Ever one did what is right in their own eyes.
Preterism
Milennialism
Amilennialmism
Dispensationalism
...are the four main eschatological viewpoints.
Then, you can argue yourself silly with variations of pre-Trib or post-Tribulation, etc. Good discussion, but at this point we lack the full knowledge that gets us to 100% understanding.
Yet, each day, each decade, we draw closer. Still, Jesus will return like a "thief in the night" and no man will truly know WHEN it will happen.
Yet, I believe the purpose of prophecy is to prove the Bible, persuade those who can still be persuaded, and to give hope to those of us who realize what perilous times we are headed toward.
When was the temple rebuilt?
When has the antichrist appeared?
When was the pace treaty signed?
When did the billions die as we are told in book of Revelation?
When did Jesus return and chain satan and demons a 1000 years?
But, it’s just not Revelation which has unfulfilled scripture.
Take Isaiah 17:1 - Woe to Damascus, it has been taken away from being a city, it has become a ruinous heap.
Only one thing would cause that.
Number 2 was in the beginning and the end of the book of Judges...but it describes our times very well!
But the Revelation is the Apostle John’s version of the Olivet Discourse. Look at the facts, as noted by Don Preston:
The seals of Revelation 6 follow exactly the pattern predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24.7 The pattern of judgment in Matthew— as well as Mark 13 and Luke 21 is:
1.) War (Matthew 24: 6; compare Revelation 6: 1-2).
2.) International strife (Mat. 24: 7a; Rev. 6: 3-4).
3.) Famine (Mat. 24: 7b; Rev. 6: 5-6).
4.) Earthquakes (Mat. 24: 7c; Rev. 6: 12;16: 18).
5.) Persecutions (Mat. 24: 9-13; Rev. 6: 9-11).
6.) De-creation (Mat. 24: 15-31; Rev. 6: 12-17) (de-creation).
Additionally, there are other parallels. Please note:
1.) Both speak of the judgment of a sinful city following the completion of the world mission (Mat. 24: 14; Rev. 14: 6f).
2.) Both speak of the Great Tribulation (Mat. 24: 21; Rev. 14).
3.) Both speak of the Abomination of Desolation (Mat. 24: 15; Rev. 13).
4.) Both urge the faithful to flee from the city (Mat. 24: 15f; Rev. 18: 4).
5.) Both speak of false prophets and the workers of false miracles (Mat. 24: 24; Rev. 13: 12-15).
6.) Both speak of the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds (Mat. 24: 30; Rev. 14: 14f). 7.) Both speak of the sounding of the Trumpet at the time of the end (Mat. 24: 31; Rev. 11: 15f).
8.) Both speak of the salvation of the elect (Mat. 24: 31; Rev. 14: 15-16).
9.) Both speak of the gathering of the birds of the air to feast on the carcass of the dead (Mat. 24: 28; Rev. 19: 17f).
Compare this with Deuteronomy 28: 25-26; Psalms 79; Jeremiah 34, etc.. This is a common theme associated with punishment on Israel. 10.) Both predictions were to be fulfilled soon (Mat. 24: 34; Rev. 1: 1-3; 22: 6, 10, 12, 20). These, and other similarities, show that the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are parallel. The significant thing about these parallels, for the amillennialist and postmillennialist, is that every one of them is taken from the section of Matthew 24 that is almost universally agreed to be speaking about the fall of Jerusalem.
Preterism is the only eschatological view that strictly depends on WHEN a book of the Bible was written. If John wrote Revelation in 95 AD (which the overwhelming majority of scholars down through history support) then preterism is vaporware.
Frankly, preterism is the easiest eschatological view to dispense with ... but they scream the loudest so we have to continually deal with them.
which is followed by another time text in 22:7, 22:12 ...
curious why preterists tend to ignore the time text that is placed after the new heaven and earth passages but not the ones before.
I am with you. I became a preterist before I knew it had a name.. I read the Bible a lot... It is written for us, not to us.. God opened my eyes a long time ago.. Thanks for your web site...
Either the Bible is completely true or it is completely false. I do not recall any historical mention of all eyes beholding Christ as He returned to Earth to defeat Evil and set things right....
Matt. 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Clearly Matt. 24 deals not only with the fall of Jerusalem (however briefly) but more so with the signs of the second coming and end of the age.
Parallels, layers, shadow pictures exist throughout scripture. For example, the sacrifice of a lamb at first Passover in Egypt was a shadow picture of Yeshua's sacrifice for all mankind. The temple was destroyed how many times already? The many layered 70 week prophecy of Daniel and many, many more prophesies play out similarly. What we have seen all through Bible history are all real events that actually occurred or will occur. That they are parallel only increases our confidence.
Do a search for "the day of" and "day of the Lord". Study the scriptures (both OT & NT) pertaining to that fearful day that has yet to arrive - though very near, IMO.
A DOZEN REASONS WHY I BECAME A PRETERIST
John 5, 28-29, past or future?
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28-29 ESV)
John 6, 39-40, Past or future?
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:39-40 ESV)
John’s Revelation – 18“And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (Revelation 16)
Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (The Wars of The Jews, 4:4:5)
John’s Revelation – 19“Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (Revelation 16)
Josephus – “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (The Wars of The Jews, 5:1:1)
John’s Revelation –21 “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (Revelation 16)
Josephus – “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (The Wars of The Jews, 5:6:3)
John’s Revelation – 5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!” (Revelation 6)
Josephus – Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer. When these had so done, they shut themselves up in the inmost rooms of their houses, and ate the corn they had gotten; some did it without grinding it, by reason of the extremity of the want they were in, and others baked bread of it, according as necessity and fear dictated to them: a table was no where laid for a distinct meal, but they snatched the bread out of the fire, half-baked, and ate it very hastily. (The Wars of The Jews, 5:10:2)
John’s Revelation – 8The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Revelation 8)
Josephus – And for such as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads up above the water, they were either killed by darts, or caught by the vessels; but if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands; and indeed they were destroyed after various manners everywhere, till the rest being put to flight, were forced to get upon the land, while the vessels encompassed them about (on the sea): but as many of these were repulsed when they were getting ashore, they were killed by the darts upon the lake; and the Romans leaped out of their vessels, and destroyed a great many more upon the land: one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped.
And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air, insomuch that the misery was not only the object of commiseration to the Jews, but to those that hated them, and had been the authors of that misery. This was the upshot of the sea-fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before, was six thousand and five hundred. (The Wars of The Jews, 3:10:9.)
And from Matthew 24:
1) 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
And indeed what greater mischief can the war, though it should be a violent one, do to us than the earthquake hath done? Nay, there is a signal of our enemies’ destruction visible, and that a very great one also; and this is not a natural one, nor derived from the hand of foreigners neither, but it is this, that they have barbarously murdered our ambassadors, contrary to the common law of mankind; and they have destroyed so many, as if they esteemed them sacrifices for God, in relation to this war. But they will not avoid his great eye, nor his invincible right hand; and we shall be revenged of them presently, in case we still retain any of the courage of our forefathers, and rise up boldly to punish these covenant-breakers. (The Wars of The Jews, 1:19:4).
2) 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand – 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
“And now, when the multitude were gotten together to an assembly, and everyone was in indignation at these men’s seizing upon the sanctuary, at their rapine and murders but had not yet begun their attacks upon them Agnus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes he said, ‘Certainly, it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these bloodshedding villains’” (The Wars of The Jews, 4:3:10).
3) 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equaled again.
Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world. (The Wars of The Jews, 6:9:4)
4) 24For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible.
A false prophet was the occasion of these people’s destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes.
Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance. (The Wars of The Jews, 6:5:2)
5) 29. . . the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
Thus also before the Jews’ rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. (The Wars of The Jews, 6:5:3)
6) 30“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.”
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner (court of the temple,) as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” (The Wars of The Jews, 6:5:3)
7) 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
And that is exactly what his followers did. Thus, the early Christians fled to the hills and were saved, while the Jews rush to the Temple and were destroyed – and this happened to that same generation Jesus spoke to before his death. This is the way an early Roman historian recorded it:
While the holy house was on fire, everything was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity; but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests, were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain ; and because this hill was high , and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought that the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine anything either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamour of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword.
The people also that were left above were beaten back upon the enemy, and under a great consternation, and made sad moans at the calamity they were under; the multitude also that was in the city joined in this outcry with those that were upon the hill; and besides many of those that were worn away by the famine, and their mouths almost closed when they saw the fire of the holy house, they exerted their utmost strength, and brake out into groans and outcries again: Perea did also return the echo, as well as the mountains round about,[the city,] and augmented the force of the entire noise.
Yet was the misery itself more terrible than this disorder; for one would have thought that the hill itself, on which the temple stood, was seething-hot , as full of fire on every part of it, that the blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain more in number that those that slew them; for the ground did nowhere appear visible, for the dead bodies that lay on it; but the soldiers went over the heaps of these bodies, as they ran upon such as fled from them. (The Wars of The Jews, 6:5:1)
This is a partial list from my own study - the work of Josephus is very long and I have not read it all. But this gives you an idea of the total destruction of Jerusalem as foretold by Jesus.
I understood that the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 ad was part of Jesus prophecy...but it was not his ...”end times” prophecies. Daniel said that after the prince was “cut off the final “week” was to be held in abeyance until God had determined that the fullness of the gentiles had come in and that Israel be restored as a nation. There has been no universal beast numbering system. the Gog and Magog wars haven’t occurred yet. The earth has not lost 6 hours of its day night rotation yet and the moon still shows her light. The Mount of Olives has not split in 2 allowing the water at its center to flow east and west.(there is a fault line in the Mountain with a huge untapped reservoir of fresh water under the whole area) In short, Pretirist arguments just fall short. Unless you are prepared to call half the Bible false and myth, you’d better drop the pretirist mindset!
preterist. I don`t even know what that means for sure but I do believe the kingdom of god came at that time and believe much of revelation was fulfilled.
But I can see that we disagree on some things.
8. I realized that, in spite of what may appear obvious, the Bible never speaks about the end of the physical universe or planet earth. (Really, it doesn’t.) >>>>>>
2 Peter 3:10.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Sorry - I chose to believe Jesus when he tells his disciples that this generation will see it all. And again, in the first chapter of Revelation he tells John he will show him things which must take place soon.
Once you accept what Jesus said, the rest falls into place.
I stick with that.
I would have to say I am a partial preterist.
Many of the prophecies were fulfilled. Some are still pending.
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