Here's one
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3275781/posts?page=909#909 Your comments highlighted there at the top of the page.
Those are mutually exclusive.
One simply cannot give birth from realm of spirit -- unless they are
a spirit themselves and have god-like powers of being able to reproduce as it were, in realms of spirit.
Or else if you see Kolob, tell him hie.
(Elsie would get that joke)
Then there is the thing about prayers to departed saints being (near entirely?) absent from historical records prior to near the 4th century. Way back at #642
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3275781/posts?page=642#642
Meanwhile, which Roman Catholic is it that has moderator privileges and keeps reads comments while those are still in review, and then tipping off select FRomans about what may be coming down the pike?
Or else if you see Kolob, tell him hie. (Elsie would get that joke) Better than that; he has actual historical data to post!!
|
W. W. Phelps I have a Dream
 William Wines Phelps, assistant president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
in Missouri
|
|
William W. Phelps' grave marker.
The back is inscribed with the words
There is no end to matter
There is no end to space
There is no end to spirit
There is no end to race.
There is no end to glory
There is no end to love
There is no end to being
There is no death above"
from the hymn
Today, William W. Phelps is probably best-known for his legacy of LDS hymns, many of which appear in the current edition of the LDS Hymnal.[6]
Just a couple...
Excommunicated and rebaptizedA scribe to Joseph Smith Jr., for some time, in late 1838 Phelps was one of several who bore witness against Smith and other leaders, aiding in their imprisonment in Missouri until April 1839. In June 1840, Phelps plead for forgiveness in a letter to Smith. Smith replied with an offer of full fellowship, and ended with the famous couplet, "'Come on, dear brother, since the war is past, For friends at first are friends again at last.'"[4]
It was decided that Phelps, along with Frederick G. Williams, could be ordained as elders and serve missions abroad. Phelps served a brief mission in the eastern United States in 1841. Phelps moved to Nauvoo, Illinois where on August 27, 1841, he replaced Robert B. Thompson (who had died) as Joseph Smith's clerk. Beginning in February 1843, Phelps became the ghostwriter of many of Smith's important written works of the Nauvoo period, including General Joseph Smith's Appeal to the Green Mountain Boys of November 1843, Smith's theodemocratic presidential platform of January 1844, and The Voice of Innocence which was presented to and unanimously approved by the Relief Society in February 1844 to rebut claims of polygamy in Nauvoo arising out of Orsimus Bostwick's lawsuit accusing Hyrum Smith of polygamy and other sexual misconduct with the women of Nauvoo.[5]
Phelps was endowed on December 9, 1843, received his "second anointing" promising him godhood on February 2, 1844, and was also made a member of the Council of Fifty. In Nauvoo, Phelps spoke out in favor of the destruction of an opposition newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor. He believed that the city charter gave the church leaders power to declare the newspaper a nuisance. Shortly afterwards, the press and type were carried into the street and destroyed. Phelps was summoned to be tried for treason with Joseph Smith at Carthage, Illinois.
During the Mormon Succession Crisis in 1844, Phelps sided with Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He was again excommunicated on December 9, 1848 for entering into an unauthorized polygamous marriage, but was rebaptized two days later.[citation needed] He took part in the Mormon Exodus across the Great Plains and settled in Salt Lake City in 1849. He served a mission in southern Utah Territory (as counselor to Parley P. Pratt) from November 1849 to February 1850. There he served in the Utah territorial legislature and on the board of regents for the University of Deseret (now the University of Utah). Phelps died on March 7, 1872 in Salt Lake City, Utah Territory. He was buried at Salt Lake City Cemetery.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Phelps_(Mormon)
Hello, Blue Dragon, get your coffee cup and away we go!
"Your comments...are mutually exclusive. One simply cannot give birth from realm of spirit -- unless they are a spirit themselves, and have god-like powers of being able to reproduce as it were, in realms of spirit."
Oh, buckets-o'-bricks! (Smacking my forehead.) Now I see where some of our mutual incomprehension is coming from. Catholics do not believe that Mary is or ever was giving birth or reproducing "from realm of spirit", whatever that means. The only Person she ever gave birth to, was Jesus Christ Our Lord, and since then she has not given birth to bodies or souls or any manner of thing. Jeepers.
And now I see why you're popping in these cryptic references to Kolob: you think what Catholics are adopting Mormon doctrine, with some Heavenly Mother making spirit babies that later get put into bodies and become human. No. No-no-no. Catholics do not believe in the pre-existence of souls, but, on the contrary, that God creates each soul individually and ex-nihilo at the time of each person’s conception. No fabulously multiparous Queen Bee or Spirit Mother!!
”Then there is the thing about prayers to departed saints being (near entirely?) absent from historical records prior to near the 4th century. “
You are mistaken about this. It started way, way before then. Offerings for the dead were an accepted part of Jewish Temple practice: the Jews of late antiquity prayed for the purification of the souls of the departed in the Temple, and were prayed for by departed saints, such as the Prophet Samuel (2 Maccabees). While you do not accept this as Scripture, it is at least a clear historic documentation of the Jews interceding for the purification of their departed ones, and relying in turn on the intercession of the prophets.
The early Church retained this from our Jewish heritage, and the post-Temple Jews themselves, according to the Talmud and the Zohar, have also retained it in some form. Jewish people petition the souls of venerable rabbis and others of the righteous departed, to pray on their behalf.
In Christianity, prayer for the dead is in evidence since at least the 100’s AD, proven not by documents but by carved and painted tomb inscriptions in the catacombs. Celebration of the Eucharist for the dead--- also in the catacombs --- can be traced back archaeologically to at least the 200’s. The same with the departed saints, especially martyrs of the periodic persecutions, to whom they prayed, “Intercede for us that we may follow in your footsteps.”
"Meanwhile, which Roman Catholic is it that has moderator privileges..."
None that I have heard of. But if you find out, be sure to let me know :o)
Ears perked,
Mrs. Don-o
