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To: Mrs. Don-o; MamaB; CynicalBear

As you had said previously, although not having there strictly identified the women as being included among these archetypes, is still that;

Doesn't that work better, be more inclusively encompassing of the Creator's relationship with man whom He made?

1,049 posted on 04/16/2015 9:19:59 PM PDT by BlueDragon (a ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are for...)
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To: BlueDragon
The reference also draws our attention to Zion (Daughter Zion), Daughter Jerusalem, Israel, the Church, Lady Ecclesia, etc. etc.


1,050 posted on 04/17/2015 4:31:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueDragon

Sounds good to me. It’s a both-and.


1,051 posted on 04/17/2015 4:46:42 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you and keep you, may He turn to you His countenance and give you peace.)
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To: BlueDragon
"Until we get to the part that makes Mary into be "Queen of Heaven”…That's when things change from "grandest examples of the epic coherence and continuity of Sacred Scripture from beginning to end" to representing significant breech instead….the people clamored for being ruled over by earthly king ---- that they were making serious mistake.”

There are a couple of important things to keep in mind about Mary’s Queenship.

”So much for grand coherence when one looks to Davidic kingdom queen consort concepts and terminology which arose among men --- kings mothers being made Queen as it were in part because the earthly kings would have so many wives it would have been awkward, and led to there being no end to Court intrigues..”

Historically that’s true, as far as I know. That doesn’t detract from the “Grand coherence” I mentioned, because every detail of an archetype is not the same. For instance, David and Solomon are both types of Christ, but they were sinners while He was sinless; and they were polygamous while He was celibate; they lived in palaces while He was born in a stable and during His public ministry “had nowhere to lay His head”, etc.

The “coherence” is found, not in the match-up of every single detail (as you expect in an allegory) but in their points of contact with the Big Picture of the salvation of the world. They are types, but they are not doppelgangers.

”Yet the Ancient of Days...in the person of the Son will have but one bride….One bride whom Mary herself would be (will be) subsumed within, herself taking her own rightful & greatly honored place within body of the Bride.”

True, Christ is the Head of His Body, which is also His Bride the Church. Mary has her greatly honored place with it. (These figures--- Body and Bride ---- aren’t quite identical, but they’re both important and both Biblical.)

Yet she is also the Mother of the believers, who are called her offspring (Rev 12:17). Mary is like the “neck” of the Body of Christ (her "greatly honored place," conceptually) because she is the one genetic, bodily connection Christ has with the People of Israel, with the line of David, and with the human race.

”Again… Zion (Daughter Zion), Daughter Jerusalem, Israel, the Church, Lady Ecclesia, etc. etc…. Archetypes, correct? Yet one single woman amid those becomes Spiritual Mother to them all?”

Yes, if, as Scripture says, they “keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” This would not exclude Old Testament figures, since in their faith, their obedience, and their prophecy they are seen as bearing witness to Jesus. Cf. Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor, representing the Law and the Prophets.

”Woops. there's that coherence thing...not entirely so unbroken (or else interrupted, just ever so slightly corrupted) when instead of to the One true El Shaddai men begin to pray to one whom was herself, in her own origin, a human being.”

Prayer does not equal worship. It equals communion. Jesus Himself spoke to people who had gone on before (Moses and Elijah) but He did not worship them. And speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He said they are not dead, since “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not a God of the dead, but of the living.”

We are forbidden to adore anybody but God; however we are in constant communication ---communion --- with all the Body of Christ. That’s what the Body of Christ is all about: we are the cells, tissues, organs, systems, limbs and senses of Christ, all in constant, necessary, living contact with each other, and sharing mutually in spiritual goods. There is a name for this: the Communion of Saints.

That is why contact with Saints is not only possible, because essential: “the eye can’t say to the hand, “I don’t need you,” nor can the head say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”(1 Cor 12:21)

”Jesus, yes it is true that He is "member of the human race" as you put it, yet He also returned back to where He was before -- His Father's Kingdom. His Father never died...save for in the person of the Son. His origins -- are beyond merely created realms which man by the grace of God is allowed to inhabit.”

Yes, truly. He returned to where He was before, and he returned in His glorious, resurrected, transfigured body. He is still a member of the human race, and will be for all eternity, just as He is still God, and will be for all eternity. His human flesh, human nature, will never cease to exist, and His divinity is from everlasting to everlasting.

”Mary cannot therefor be Queen consort to the Father, despite hopes to justify her as so for reason she was the son's earthly mother.”

True. I have never heard of Mary ---nor, for that matter, Zion (Daughter Zion), Daughter Jerusalem, Israel, the Church, Lady Ecclesia, etc. --- referred to a consorts of the Father. ???

There are other OT queenly archetypes: for instance, Psalms 45:9-17

Daughters of kings are your lovely wives;
a princess arrayed in Ophir’s gold
comes to stand at your right hand.

Listen, my daughter, and understand;
pay me careful heed.
Forget your people and your father’s house,
that the king might desire your beauty.
He is your lord;
honor him, daughter of Tyre.
Then the richest of the people
will seek your favor with gifts.
All glorious is the king’s daughter as she enters,
her raiment threaded with gold;
In embroidered apparel she is led to the king.
The maids of her train are presented to the king.
They are led in with glad and joyous acclaim;
they enter the palace of the king.
The throne of your fathers your sons will have;
you shall make them princes through all the land.


This is certainly anagogical.

And where would you assume a Queen to be? The Biblically correct place would be at the king’s "right hand":

Psalm 45:9
daughters of kings are among Your ladies of honour; at Your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.

and...

1 Kings 2:19
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. The king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right.

The Biblical commandment says that we are to honor our father and our mother. Solomon demonstrated how a great King's mother is to be treated. Do you think that Jesus would fall short of the standards of His predecessors, or would show less honor to His own Mother?

It is belittling of Jesus to suppose that He would fulfill the commandments and courtesies less regally than His ancestor Solomon did.

Mary’s Queenship is utterly dependent upon Christ. I am absolutely confident that He will not slight her or treat her one iota less than was the custom of Solomon.

1,056 posted on 04/17/2015 11:09:26 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The eye can't say to the hand, I don't need you! - The head can't say to the feet, I don't need you!)
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