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To: roamer_1
No you haven't, as technically, by the law (tradition), if the woman has no sons, and her husband's house cannot care for her, then her care can almost necessarily come from (she returns to) her father's house. The one chosen can come from any relation, providing that those with better standing are notified and consent - And his wishes in nominating John would carry much weight. We have no idea how John, son of Zebedee, was related to Mary, any more than we know for certain how Joseph of Arimathea had the familial authority to claim the body of Yeshua - It is likely that ALL who went to prepare him for the grave WERE related, because that tended to be a very family oriented event...

I would rather characterize it as you are not persuaded rather than I have not provided proof, for I have provided proof. Americans have the constitutional right to follow or create any religious tradition they desire (witness the Mormons, J Witnesses, etc.), nor none at all. However, the theory that Mary had other natural children is a modern tradition.

I see you have carefully advanced the possibility that neither Joseph nor Mary had any natural children and that the Apostle John, being a cousin, was a natural choice, so to speak.

So, your declarations prove nothing, without laying John's claim to Mary before us, which cannot be done, and likewise, the claim of John as treated by others who may have a greater claim, which also cannot be done. As it is, Yeshua left her care to the one that he loved, and to the one who, as it turns out, was the only one long lived enough to be able to care for her - A prophecy in it's own right.

False, true, true, true, false

Absolutely incorrect. Yeshua tore down the tradition of the rabbis - A disciple of Moses is a disciple of Moses, and not of anybody else. And he established (necessarily) the same exact thing through himself - He came to teach the doctrine of his Father, not of Himself, thus his doctrine IS his Father's, and his Father's doctrine is Torah. He said 'Follow ME'. not 'follow the pope' or 'follow the elders'.

False, false, true, true, true, false

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Malachi, Catholic chapter four, Protestant verses one to six,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses seventeen to twenty,
Matthew, Catholic chapter seventeen, Protestant verses one to three,
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty three, Protestant verses one to three,
John, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses forty size to forty seven,
Hebrews, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verses one to five,
Revelation, Catholic chapter fifteen, Protestant verses two to four,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James


Those that do the will of His Father, not any silly succession of men. That's the very same trap the Pharisees fell into.

False; the trap the Pharisees fell into was unbelief, hypocrisy, and unrighteousness which can afflict men of any religious denomination, faith community, sect, or cult. The Pharisees sat in Moses seat, your gainsaying notwithstanding.

236 posted on 04/11/2015 7:53:11 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
I would rather characterize it as you are not persuaded rather than I have not provided proof, for I have provided proof.

Accepted. Forgive my presumption. Your proofs rather, are insufficient in their construction.

Americans have the constitutional right to follow or create any religious tradition they desire (witness the Mormons, J Witnesses, etc.), nor none at all. However, the theory that Mary had other natural children is a modern tradition.

It is not a tradition. It is just a plain reading of the scriptures, without the need to make Mary ever-virgin, thus removing an element of eisegesis... The concept has zero foundation in Scripture (particularly Torah and the Prophets), or in Hebrew culture and tradition. It is a foreign concept. But the 'Ever-Virgin' has deep roots in paganism. That it is a syncretism is almost without an argument. That most titles given to Mary have their profane counterpart should be a mighty clue.

I see you have carefully advanced the possibility that neither Joseph nor Mary had any natural children [...]

Not at all - I was simply entertaining your argument for the purpose of the subject matter: 'Yeshua had no brothers because he gave his mother to John' is a faulty premise without an understanding of the familial relations and conditions at the time. Since that data is not available, the premise remains, and must remain, without merit.

[...]and that the Apostle John, being a cousin, was a natural choice, so to speak.

But that cannot be, else the Bible would have called John Yeshua's brother. ; )

The Pharisees sat in Moses seat, your gainsaying notwithstanding.

Take off your Rome colored glasses, wipe the Greece from your eyes and study that passage in depth. Yeshua is telling the people to do as Moses says, and not to follow the tradition of the Pharisees (their takanot and ma'asim... what they 'say' and 'do')... He then follows with a point by point tear-down. Every time he went up against the Pharisees, it was an intentional, premeditated attack upon their greater tradition... Their 'authority'. They had no authority.

237 posted on 04/12/2015 11:35:12 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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