Posted on 04/07/2015 3:13:37 PM PDT by Legatus
I chose not to make this a caucus thread so it had better not turn into another perpetual virginity battle.
It’s not just Catholics. The entire Christian church is failing men. The Curcillo movement was created after WW2 to bring men back into the Roman Catholic church in Spain and it spread to become Via de Cristo for Lutherans, Walk to Emmaus for Methodists, and Presbyterian Pilgrimage for Calvinists.
But, the pilgrims on weekend retreats are largely women. The problem is that the role of men as spiritual leaders of the family has been destroyed by society and by their ex-wives and current wives. Since men can’t even be the spiritual leader of their family, they just give up and let the priest/pastor be the spiritual leader of the wife and kids who do attend church. Another case of the husband/father becoming irrelevant in today’s family.
What is your take on why people are fleeing the church?
The feminization of the Church get seriously going in the 12th Century.
The bishops and priests of 1968, determined to maintain their popularity, allowed the faithful to adopt the practice of sodomy (contraception) en masse.
The bishops allowed the Quakers and leftist Jews to ethnically cleanse major American cities—systematically driving Catholics into the suburbs, where they were socially isolated and no longer a political force to be reckoned with. It all happened under the bishops’ noses, and they didn’t lift a finger.
I see emphasis from the bishops on social justice, which is a major tenant of Marxism. I see additional emphasis on income equality/inequality with no emphasis on the work ethic. I see nothing being done to admonish illegitimacy.
I could go on.
That's a question with a very long answer, I'll try to be brief. I believe the "collapse" started when Rome changed the rites surrounding the Sacraments. People had been led along believing that the Church never changes and then almost overnight everything was changed. Then (and this is where I put on my tin foil hat) homosexuals infiltrated the clergy in massive numbers and basically just destroyed everything from within.
It's a lot more complex than just that, but I think those two things contributed more than anything else. There was also the birth control kerfuffle, the people who were happy with the changes expected (and were led to expect) that the Church would change its teaching on birth control as well. There was a backlash when that didn't happen.
Because it's not Catholic enough.
Not serious about doctrine, not serious about discipline, not serious about being the Church Militant (while still having some of the characteristics of the Church Nurturant.)
If the Church made more demands at every level --- heroic truth, heroic service, the heroic attachment to Christ --- some slackers would leave but many men would be inspired and come back.
That's my take on it.
Rats, I like your answer better than mine. :)
It’s not about perpetual virginity. Not at all and if it were, then one has to at least attempt to explain why it is a recent phenomenon.
Anyway: A local parish, in existence in the past quarter century, has traditional music, well done, I’ll add, at Masses. The celebrants process the Aisle in gran fashion for every Mass.
NOT theatrical, grand. Reverent.
One Sunday Mass per week is in Latin. And not the mumbling irreverent pre Vatican II, but Novus Ordo, with the translation easily recognizable - same sequence so those who complain with INSANITY that they cannot understand what’s going on - don’t get me started.
No girls on the altar. They would not dream of joking from the altar. There is no clapping not ever.
The choir is in the loft to the rear, where it belongs. It’s not a Disney production.
The music is sing able not some atheistic off beat impossible out of tune dora the explorer torturous demonic cacophony no one knows, no one cares to know and everyone hopes is over soon.
It does not suggest the congregation live like this always just one hour a week for heaven’s sake Literally.
It is a hint of heaven, otherwise, why would anyone want to go to Mass..
The priest is in vestments at all times, and garners due respect. He visits the Vatican regularly, he is not some renegade.
NO Eucharistic ministers, only deacons or seminarians and himself, on the tongue, kneeling at the rail
Full consecration, not hogging thirty minutes to joke about sports and film and UGH AAGH! welcoming out of towners, to scream through the consecration at breakneck speed to haul up every sleevles faded demin flip flop wearing gum chewer from the congregation in fifteen minutes while the congregation sits doing nothing , or tries to tam impatient kids and husbands, who have nothing to draw on in terms of envisioning heaven and if THIS is heaven, who WOULDN’T want to skip this bastardization of the mass, blamed completely erroneously on Vatican II, which does not call for this ugliness at all.
And there is NOT any hand holding, no greeting people after consecration for a handshake of peace.
All in keeping with the Magesterium and the Vatican.
These Masses are where the men can be found. Both in the congregation and on the Altar (where there are no girls allowed - there has never been a girl on that altar).
This is how to get men involved. I’m a girl, though, so what do I know?.
Gregorian Chant . That and the music - less Mass early AM.
I see Satan at work in a feverish way right now. I believe he knows his time is limited.
We are having marriage being redefined right in front of our eyes into something that is not in accordance with God's definition of marriage. As the family is impacted so is the church.
The rise of feminism with women pastors is impacting the church as well. If you're not going to be faithful to the requirements of the office as noted in 1 Timothy and Titus, why will you be faithful in the rest of the word?
The Bible does note there will be a falling away in the End Times. But I also believe God is One who is not willing that any should perish....but He does have a time line.
I think He may be watching the church to see what the Bride will do. Will she get herself ready for the groom?
Will there be revival among His people?
As men, we are to be the spiritual head of the household. Are we preparing our families? Are we leading our families as we should?
I pray we, I, am not found wanting.
I think you are painting with a pretty board brush, though I certainly agree most mainline denominational churches are in fact failing man...
There are churches that have not bowed the knee to Baal...
Your second half of your post is spot on
The problem is that the role of men as spiritual leaders of the family has been destroyed by society and by their ex-wives and current wives. Since men can’t even be the spiritual leader of their family, they just give up
True shepherds will hold the men in their church accountable for the spiritual life of their own family...
When G.K. Chesterton wanted to answer the question, “What’s wrong with the world?”, he answered, “I am.”
>>I think you are painting with a pretty board brush, though I certainly agree most mainline denominational churches are in fact failing man...
Of course I’m painting with a broad brush. I wasn’t writing a dissertation with studies and citations of specifics.
On the average, Christianity is failing men in this country. Christ isn’t failing them, but the churches are. And the distractions of life give them the excuse to stay away. There are exceptions, of course. My church tries very hard to keep men engaged, but most of them slip away after the service on sunday and you don’t see them again until next week. We have 50 men who are Elders and Deacons (in our non-mainline church) and they make up the majority of the men who show up for all of our men’s events.
**I think we’re in the Last Days myself. If we’re not, it’s going to get a lot rougher going forward. But it won’t be the first time Christianity has hit rough times.**
Then it’s time to get very serious about coming back to the Church.
A man's position is more like that of a sheepdog, always at the Shepherds side, always ready to search out the stray and bring it back to the fold, and always ready, willing, and able to take on the wolf that tries for the flock.
That is a task and imagery that I feel most men could get behind, and that would bring more men back to the church.
I agree. My mother took me to a United Methodist Church when I was young and they believed in nothing and when we gradually stopped attending service it made no difference to us.
Even though the militant Catholics on FR will recoil at what I say, it’s the same militant Catholics who often bemoan the fact that the current pope is a spiritual brother to our current President. Neither really evidences a profound love for the organization that they lead and everyone knows it.
Don’t get me wrong. The pope is a nice guy but where is he when ‘Catholics’ like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden promote perversion and deviancy? He’s silent.
I’m not a Catholic but if there was something that would attract my attention to considering the Catholic Church it would be if this current pope took a moral stand and excommunicated some of the key liberal Democrats and had them officially trespassed from church property.
That would tell me that he really believes in his faith. I bet it would also bring back a lot of that 14 million who’ve fallen away.
When women seize power, men walk away.
False ecumenism.
One of the reasons I don't volunteer to change their flat tire, fix their sink, etc,etc. They wanna be men? Knock yourself out.
This is nothing new sadly.
So few males are willing to grow up and be men.
Christianity teaches that a man should rule his appetites not be a slave to them. This is not a happy notion after you have been raised with a boys will be boys mentality.
It is easy to say that it is just this day and age but it is not. For centuries males have treated church as a social club and religion as something only for children, women and perhaps old men.
In historical paintings, how many of them picture young men in church, reading the Bible or praying?
Now how many show them fighting or at play?
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