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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Tao Yin; Mrs. Don-o
It's not possible to have a conversation with someone who can't hear me.

But, they can hear you. See my post #65.

101 posted on 04/20/2015 4:29:00 PM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: Biggirl; MamaB

If their physical, earthly bodies are dead, communication with them is forbidden.

Besides, people in hell are alive too, so that argument falls flat.


102 posted on 04/20/2015 4:31:01 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Resettozero
Unregenerate men and women worship anything and everything EXCEPT God...because they don't know Him or His Son.

Since Catholics only worship God, and not the saints, what is your point?

103 posted on 04/20/2015 4:33:36 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: HangnJudge
Why pray to a Saint when one has a straight connection to G.D

Because they are praying in unbelief. They essentially don't believe that God Himself will answer their prayers as HE promised that He would. IOW, they don't take Him at His word.

104 posted on 04/20/2015 4:33:43 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: NYer
God Himself has opened his thrown room to us and commanded us to bring our petitions to Him. Why would I want to go to an underling?

Besides, what's the pecking order for saints hearing prayers? Or do you give strictly divine qualities, i.e., omniscience, to the saints?

105 posted on 04/20/2015 4:34:42 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Salvation
Many Catholics have rightly denied that we worship saints, but I have never seen a Catholic deny that we pray to them, and I have participated in many a Religion Forum threads for 17 years.

What say you, Salvation???

106 posted on 04/20/2015 4:35:15 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: metmom
If their physical, earthly bodies are dead, communication with them is forbidden.

We're not conjuring them up, like the witch of Endor, or engaging in two-way conversation.

We're asking them to pray to God for us.

Rev. 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.


107 posted on 04/20/2015 4:35:27 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Salvation
Church Suffering — Those souls in Purgatory waiting to go to heaven

So you believe that Christ's work on the cross was not completely sufficient to forgive all sins?

108 posted on 04/20/2015 4:36:34 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Petrosius

You didn’t read the scripture references. I am referring to the saints in the visible church, i.e. Christians.


109 posted on 04/20/2015 4:37:39 PM PDT by kosciusko51
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To: ealgeone
The catholic position ignores the Biblical position on this issue.

Rather, The catholic position ignores the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura using only the Protestant Bible as the sole authority on this issue.

We do not have any injunction or example of praying to the departed believers.

The selected application of Sola Scriptura in your comment exposes its shortcoming. Not having an injunction or example in the Protestant Bible is insufficient to declare something true or false. There are no injunctions or examples of other truths you likely take for granted in the Protestant Bible either, principal among them Sola Scriptura itself, nor the Canon, with the last book in said Bible identifying all the preceding books to be included in said Bible.

110 posted on 04/20/2015 4:38:01 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Petrosius
Since Catholics only worship God, and not the saints, what is your point?

Yes, RCs claim this repeatedly but so do Islamists. And the leader of the RCC has said that the two deities are one and the same, just before he kissed a Quran.

How do you know that all OTC members worship the OTG and not an impersonator?
111 posted on 04/20/2015 4:39:14 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: metmom

It is all about FAITH. If God says it’s so, then it’s so. No matter WHAT. And without faith, it is impossible to please God. Funny, the eucharist is something that is taken purely by “faith” and catholics don’t seem to have a problem believing THAT is God-given. And yet.. prayer...I mean, really, God is changed from a wafer to His Body literally, and yet prayers are given to “saints” to offer to God?


112 posted on 04/20/2015 4:40:29 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: Tao Yin
I've never understood why people equate asking a person face to face or on the phone as the same as asking someone in Heaven.

Because they want to justify their doctrine and practice and it's the only way they can do it.

113 posted on 04/20/2015 4:41:54 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
**You are wise enough, I think, to get the gist of this. We pray "to" saints only in the sense that we are praying "for" intercession.**

I am wise enough to not participate in this practice.

Why? I have an intercessor:
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

114 posted on 04/20/2015 4:42:17 PM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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To: ealgeone
By what authority do you, or any other catholic, do the same when you make your understanding of Scripture?

The Church! According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible. Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20). Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35). The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false.

Can there be more than one interpretation of the Bible? No. The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament. However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. Therefore, there can only be one Truth.

When it comes to interpreting Scripture, individual non-Catholic Christians claim the same infallibility as the Papacy. If one were to put two persons of the "same" non-Catholic Christian denomination (i.e., two Presybterians, two Lutherans, two Baptists, etc.) in separate rooms with a Bible and a notepad and ask them to write down their "interpretation" of the Bible, passage for passage, shouldn't they then produce the exact same interpretation? If guided by the Holy Spirit as Scripture states, the answer should be "Yes." But would that really happen? History has shown that the answer is "No." Now, in the case of Catholics, the Church which Christ founded and is with forever (Matthew 28:20) interprets the Bible, as guided by the Holy Spirit, (Mark 13:11) for the "sheep" (the faithful). The Church (not individuals) interpret Scripture. In Catholicism, Scripture is there for meditation, prayer and inspiration, not for individual interpretation to formulate doctrine or dogma.

115 posted on 04/20/2015 4:43:30 PM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: Gamecock; Mrs. Don-o; metmom

...”It’s not an orange...it’s a tangerine...”


116 posted on 04/20/2015 4:44:49 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: WVKayaker; Boogieman
"They glorify personalities. And that makes the demons tremble gleefully party.

Your view seems to take insufficient notice of many precious promises in Scripture.

St. Paul says (Romans 2:6, 10), "God will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good work,... there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek."

This is not stealing glory from God, but rather it manifests God's freedom to give glory to those on whom His favor rests. This is a derivative glory, like the light of the moon, which is not independent, but beautifully reflects the light of the sun.

It's also a matter of inheriting glory as joint heirs with Christ:

(Romans 8:16-18): "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit
that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs,
heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ
if only we suffer with him
so that we may also be glorified with him."

"I consider that the sufferings of this present time
are as nothing
compared with the glory to be revealed for us."

(Romans 8:30) And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

Paul says the true Israelites were rightly glorified:

Romans 9:4
"They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises."

Paul himself claims this glory:

Romans 11:13
"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in my ministry."

And Paul goes on to explain that in all this, GOD is glorified:

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen

This is what we are taking about. Look again at the quote above. This is about all believers. Amen?

117 posted on 04/20/2015 4:45:43 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: smvoice; Gamecock; metmom
Citrus, in general.

I know you've got this figured out now.

118 posted on 04/20/2015 4:47:32 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: MamaB
You are fully covered by praying to Jesus You do not need anyone else.

Correctamundo Mama. I think another poster pointed out another issue. How does anyone know for sure that people are saints? Some might be, but it is possible others might be inhabiting a slightly warmer climate. No one knows for sure.

On the other hand Mama, all this talk about praying to this, praying to that, doing this, doing that, all doesn't matter a hill of beans. I want to know what is the correct plan of salvation. If one does not have that right, it doesn't matter what else they may have right or wrong.

119 posted on 04/20/2015 4:48:50 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Satan doesn’t perform miracles that glorify Our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan can’t stand Christ. Can’t stand Christian religious observance. Can’t stand the Cross or Holy Water, or even anything symbolic of the Deity. That’s well known.

I think you've been watching too many movies...

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Co_11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The anti-christ will be a counterfeit of the real Christ...You need to believe he will do every thing in his power to lead you to a counterfeit christ...He will even use 'his' ministers posing as real ministers...

And there's only one way to recognize the counterfeit christ...

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (the Bible)...

120 posted on 04/20/2015 4:48:51 PM PDT by Iscool
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