Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer
I'm beginning to think he didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.
Rather, The catholic position ignores the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura using only the Protestant Bible as the sole authority on this issue.
The selected application of Sola Scriptura in your comment exposes its shortcoming. Not having an injunction or example in the Protestant Bible is insufficient to declare something true or false. There are no injunctions or examples of other truths you likely take for granted in the Protestant Bible either, principal among them Sola Scriptura itself, nor the Canon, with the last book in said Bible identifying all the preceding books to be included in said Bible.
The other problem haunting Protestantism and its derivative movements is a dissonant lack of historicity.
Actually, it appears the catholic position ignores the Bible while placing more emphasis on catholic tradition to its error as noted in my post 177.
You will also notice the appeal to the written word in my post 139.
That does not follow, as he was not responding to a claim of infallible teaching, but "Nobody thinks that the saints in heaven act as independent agents, dispensing favors by their own power or piety, apart from Christ Our Lord."
iscool responded with "false rcc teachings on Mary," the like of which also has popes as sources, and which, even if not "official," is uncensored teaching by RCs.
Now since you responded with distinguishing infallible teaching from what Iscool listed, then we can dispense with the majority of what RCs profess and practice, and parts of encyclicals and the CCC that do not infallible dogma. But which makes an infallible list of all infallible teachings needful, as well as an infallible interpreter to avoid or reduce interpretive variants, such as we see.
However, even if you uphold every teachings of the Ordinary Mag. also, and win the debate with the SSPX and SSPV over modern RC teaching, then we must still deal with the vast collection of accolades given to Mary, as well as the vast collection of unofficial RC apologetics. Which does testify to what many/most RCs believe, and for you to dismiss that simply because it is not infallible or official promulgation itself is hardly reasonable.
“You seem to think that miracles granted to people who love Jesus and trust in Jesus, are to be set aside because they could be of Satan.”
I’m wary of anyone who wants us to base doctrines on such evidence, when we’ve been warned the enemy will try to manipulate us with just such evidence. It seems much more prudent to base doctrine on the Word of God, since we know the source of that communication with certainty.
“Jesus Himself was confronted by the same concern: the Pharisees charged that he drove out demons by the power of Beelzebul....”
Doesn’t seem to be a very good comparison to me. If Satan has counterfeited a miracle purporting to confirm to you that some “saint” is in heaven, this is not equivalent to casting out demons. It could very well be a lie designed to mislead you, for Satan’s purposes. There is nothing intrinsic in that kind of message that tells me that can only come from the spirit of God.
“Do not confuse miracles with superstition. The Church has never been without the kinds of wonders described in the Acts of the Apostles. They glorify God. And that makes the demons tremble.”
No, your church doesn’t display the same type of miracles that were described in Acts. Your bishops, who claim to be equivalent to apostles, don’t, for example, raise the dead, or speak in tongues, as described in the Bible (so that a crowd would all hear them in a different language). Show me something like that and maybe I would be convinced of their claims.
Actually a majority of the world's Christians do accept Catholicism and its Sacred Tradition. Please do not try to restrict the term Christian by the use of the "no true Scotsman" argument.
“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”
1 Timothy 4:1
“3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
1 Corinthians 4:3-5
“21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Matthew 7:21-23
“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6
“Are you referring to predestination/Calvinism?”
No, just to the fact that only God knows what is in our hearts, so only God can judge who is truly saved and who isn’t. To think that God is bound to honor the dictates of some body of men in this matter is foolishness.
Well, it's like this...When your religion teaches against priest raping young boys yet your popes do nothing about those that do, THAT is the teaching of the Catholic religion...
If I tell you that I abhor alcoholics but all my closest friends are drunks, it's not too hard to figure out the truth of the matter...
When we see your religion condemning praying to Mary and then a pope gets on his knees in front of millions of Catholics and thanks Mary for saving his life, we KNOW the real teaching of your religion regardless of what it says on paper...
We condemn WORSHIPPING Mary, not PRAYING to her. Why is this so hard to understand?
This is made so clear in Scripture that it is shocking and surprising when some twist that passage of us "being surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses" to mean they can all see what WE are doing here on earth or in some way rationalizing us "praying" to them. I cannot imagine Heaven would be the wonderful place God tells us it is if souls there have a ringside seat to all the atrocities and cruelties going on in this world - some even in the very name of Christ!
Praying to something is worshiping...Your religion can't make up its own definition for prayer, or worship...
Nor can you ignore other valid definitions. From Merriam-Webster.com:
When Catholics use "prayer" in reference to the saints they are using it in the sense of the intransitive definition #1: "to make a request in a humble manner." And the request is that they pray to God for us. To insist that it means "worship" when this is not the intention of the speaker is to bear false witness. I would expect better from one who claims to be a Christian.pray
verb \ˈprā\
: to speak to God especially in order to give thanks or to ask for somethingFull Definition of PRAY: to hope or wish very much for something to happen
: to seriously ask (someone) to do something
transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
Examples of PRAY
There's little else to do now but hope and pray.Origin of PRAYThe minister said, “Let us pray.”
He prayed that they would have the strength to go on.
He prayed that he would find a parking spot.
Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asksRelated to PRAYFirst Known Use: 13th century
Synonymsappeal (to), beseech, besiege, conjure, entreat, impetrate, implore, importune, petition, plead (to), beg, solicit, supplicate
There is a “Prayer for Relief” in every complaint filed in every court in the country. Pretty sure they aren’t “worshipping” the judges.
What? You can't present them yourself? How stupid is that?
So the cross only covered some sins? And the sins it didn't cover you have to pay for on your own? You're still peddling a salvation by works.
My 'part' is to accept His work on the cross by faith. Not try to match it with my efforts.
This hilarious, especially given coming from you.
When asked how to pray, Jesus instructed, "When you do it, do it something like this; Our Father, which art in heaven....."
The articles biggest support for praying to mortals who have since passed on is that the saved do not perish but have eternal life - pretty agile mental gymnastics. I will not begrudge Y'All from praying to whomever you want, but it seems odd that, even after Jesus walked the Earth to become the one door between us and God, that we wouldn't prefer to pray to Him or directly to the Father.
Ah, yes, Tradition! I always forget how important that is...
Do you, as a catholic, accept this part of catholic tradition?
It's a yes or no question.
As seen below, catholicism has gone way beyond worship of Mary.....
The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185
Yet, we never see Paul, Peter, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, ever praying to Moses, Abraham, Isaac, etc.
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