Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 101-120121-140141-160 ... 981-984 next last
To: Gamecock

What an awesome concept that Jesus HIMSELF and even the Holy Spirit HIMSELF are interceding for us according to the will of God.

Honestly what more could you want and need?

I can’t help but wonder what Catholics think the saints are going to do for them that God Himself won ‘t. It’s not like I’d expect any saint to answer a prayer contrary to God’s will.


121 posted on 04/20/2015 4:49:46 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: tbpiper
Why would I want to go to an underling?

Because we are all part of the Body of Christ. Our relationship with God is "horizontal" as well as "vertical," so prayers go horizontally and vertically.

1 Tim 2:1

I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them.

Matthew 5:44

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

The Body of Christ on earth, the Church Militant, is united to the Body of Christ in Heaven, the Church Triumphant. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
Rev. 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

We pray for each other on earth, we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, and the saints in heaven present our prayers to God.
122 posted on 04/20/2015 4:50:08 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

AMEN!

The Bible passages CONFIRM it!


123 posted on 04/20/2015 4:53:27 PM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
In that sense, you pray to people here on earth every day.

This was clearer in, say, Shakespeare's day, when "pray" is commonly used by a person making a request:

"I pray you, do not fall in love with me, for I am falser than vows made in wine."

You posted the xtra word that makes all the difference...You or thee...I pray thee, or you...That's a request...Whey you pray (to), it is worship...

124 posted on 04/20/2015 4:53:36 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
You believe in the Communion of Saints, don't you?

2 Corinthians 1:11
"You help us with prayer, so that thanks may be given by many on our behalf for the gift granted us through the prayers of many."

James 5:16
"Therefore, pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."

1 Peter 3:12
"For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against evildoers."

Scripture itself strongly recommends intercessory prayer. The Lord is our intercessor: that's why all of us, the saints on earth and the saints who have gone on before us, pray for one another. Because we are one in Christ: because we are members of His Body.

If I may ask: will you pray for me, Gamecock?

125 posted on 04/20/2015 4:53:58 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

The beautiful thing about it is that it is called the communion of the saints.


126 posted on 04/20/2015 4:55:18 PM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Intercessory prayer via the saints is not worship, iscool. You and I both understand that God alone is to be adored.

James 5:16 "Therefore, pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."

Do you think prayer gets LESS powerful when the righteous person is in heaven?

127 posted on 04/20/2015 4:57:58 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Because we are all part of the Body of Christ.

Wishful thinking but untrue.

Only born-again-of-the-Spirit believers in Lord Jesus Christ are members of the Body of Christ and are redeemed in Christ Himself.

No other person, no unbeliever that Jesus of Nazareth alone is their Savior, will see the Kingdom of God, as Jesus told Nicodemus.


128 posted on 04/20/2015 4:58:52 PM PDT by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Gamecock
I can’t help but wonder what Catholics think the saints are going to do for them that God Himself won‘t. It’s not like I’d expect any saint to answer a prayer contrary to God’s will

Maybe they're the Catholic version of special interest lobbyists.

129 posted on 04/20/2015 5:01:10 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 121 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
The selected application of Sola Scriptura in your comment exposes its shortcoming. Not having an injunction or example in the Protestant Bible is insufficient to declare something true or false. There are no injunctions or examples of other truths you likely take for granted in the Protestant Bible either, principal among them Sola Scriptura itself, nor the Canon, with the last book in said Bible identifying all the preceding books to be included in said Bible.

I sure hope you're not an attorney in life.

130 posted on 04/20/2015 5:02:29 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]

To: metmom
I can’t help but wonder what Catholics think the saints are going to do for them that God Himself won‘t.

This is not what the Church teaches.

This is what you think Catholics believe.

We ask the saints to pray for us because God wills us to pray for each other --to intercede for each other. Because we are all part of the Body of Christ.

Intercessory prayer is mentioned many times in Scripture.

2 Corinthians 1:11

you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many.

Philippians 1:19

for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Psalms 122:6

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you.

Isaiah 62:6-7

On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Ephesians 6:18

With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

1 Timothy 2:1

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,

Nothing can separate us from the love of God or divide the Body of Christ. And so the saints in heaven offer our prayers to God.
Rev. 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.


131 posted on 04/20/2015 5:06:56 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 121 | View Replies]

To: NYer

How did Jesus teach us to pray? Was it to a statue? or an icon? or at a particular time? Was it to the local priest, or past relatives or even the Saints?

No, Jesus told us to pray to God the father.

Given the option of how and to whom to pray, I will follow Jesus’ teachings.


132 posted on 04/20/2015 5:07:39 PM PDT by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
In Catholicism, Scripture is there for meditation, prayer and inspiration, not for individual interpretation to formulate doctrine or dogma.

HaHaHa...Catholicism throws away bible doctrine and invents its own...

133 posted on 04/20/2015 5:07:42 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone; af_vet_1981
I sure hope you're not an attorney in life.

I'm beginning to think he didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

134 posted on 04/20/2015 5:09:23 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
We pray for each other on earth, we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, and the saints in heaven present our prayers to God.

That is quite the personal extrapolation of Rev 5:8. Your personal understanding conflicts with the very words of Rev 5:8 and with what other RCs, including popes, have said regarding this verse of Scripture. Need to revisit this in your studies.
135 posted on 04/20/2015 5:11:58 PM PDT by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; metmom
This is not what the Church teaches.

This is what you think Catholics believe.


Where's the pea now, metmom?

(I wanna mindread FReepers, just like some RCs can.)
136 posted on 04/20/2015 5:14:21 PM PDT by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 131 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman

” Jesus Christ is the judge of the living and the dead, and He alone decides who receives salvation.”
Would you give me the scriptures on this?
Are you referring to predestination/Calvinism?


137 posted on 04/20/2015 5:16:18 PM PDT by conservativesister
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
Intercessory prayer via the saints is not worship, iscool. You and I both understand that God alone is to be adored.

There have been countless prayers to Saints and Jesus' mother posted over the years with Catholics praying NOT for intercession but directly TO these people for salvation, peace, help, health, selling houses, miracles...Many of these prayers come from former popes, and many publications with the Nihil Obstat declaration...

And YET, you guys deny praying TO these Saints and Mary...

And praying TO these entities without the purpose of intercession IS worship...

138 posted on 04/20/2015 5:19:14 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

To: NYer
The Church! According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible.

Again, keep things in context. Read all of 1 Timothy 3 so you will understand why Paul is writing to the church.

Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20).

Read on to the next verse for a complete understanding of this. You might also want to check with the Bereans on this issue..."Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:11 NASB

Peter also had this to say about the word....

2like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation 1 Peter 2:2 NASB

Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35).

We will note the Ethiopian was not Jew or Christian. However, Philip was and he was moved by the Spirit to explain Isaiah to the man. He used, gasp, the scriptures, the written word, to explain how the man could have salvation through Christ.

This is not a case of forbidding someone to read the word to try and understand it. It is an example of helping someone come to Christ using the word.

The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false.

Guess that part about the Holy Spirit being our Helper doesn't apply in reading the word......

I understand why the rcc doesn't want their members to read the text if your understanding of the text is an example of the level of understanding of a catholic.

If you read the Bible, how do you know what it means unless there is a priest or bishop there to explain it to you?

BTW....you're making your own interpretation of Scripture, weak as it is, just by posting these verses.

139 posted on 04/20/2015 5:24:01 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

LOL!!


140 posted on 04/20/2015 5:24:26 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 101-120121-140141-160 ... 981-984 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson