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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Eucharista
...but then I've been a Catholic all of my life.

Yes, that can be an insurmountable problem for many RCs. But not all. Some RCs have responded to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have believed and followed Him alone and come out of it.
401 posted on 04/21/2015 1:20:13 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista
You knew what that girl was thinking? Wow, I wasn't aware that mind reading was a gift of the Holy Spirit...

Your brand of posting is vaguely familiar. You've been here before under another log-in?

By the way, what you posted is truly blasphemous on a couple of levels. You've been notified.
402 posted on 04/21/2015 1:22:42 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: FateAmenableToChange
The RCC has through history taught and then retracted several interpretations of scripture

Name them.

403 posted on 04/21/2015 1:24:06 PM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: Eucharista

Both are bad for you, so I would say no.


404 posted on 04/21/2015 1:25:22 PM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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Comment #405 Removed by Moderator

To: Eucharista
More accurately, it was a logical fallacy known as the false analogy.

Now, THAT does sound VERY familiar. Time for a good search of FR.

You sure you're not a retread?
406 posted on 04/21/2015 1:31:00 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista
You knew what that girl was thinking?

Nothing in my post conveyed anything that could make anyone believe I said anything even close to that. Now that is mindreading, twisting my post into something you can attack me with, you are fitting in real good here. Same ol' same ol'

Good job.

Cement doesn't think, did you think the stature was a real person?

407 posted on 04/21/2015 1:38:42 PM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: RnMomof7
God loves the sinner, he hates the sin.

In the story of Jonah, everyone knew Ninevah was wicked. God was prepared to destroy them. But He still loved them. And he sent Jonah to them. Jonah didn't want to go. Jonah wanted Ninevah to get what they had coming to them. Enter very big fish, swallows Jonah, Jonah decides to obey and go. Ninevah repents! Jonah is mad, because Jonah wanted Ninevah destroyed.

9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, [even] unto death. 10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: 11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and [also] much cattle?

God's love is eternal. There's not a person on earth that God didn't knit together in his mother's womb and who God doesn't care for. But God anger at injustice and evil is eternal too. And God will destory evil if the people won't repent.

God loves us before we're his. He loves us despite the sin. But He won't tolerate the sin for ever.

408 posted on 04/21/2015 1:40:00 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: ealgeone
We'd have to go through the quotes one by one, which I don't have time to do right now, though if you would want to take it up later, go ahead and send me some.

Dogmas of the Church would include Mary's ever-virginity, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, her role as pre-eminent intercessor within the Communion of Saints, her title of Theotokos (Mother of God)--- I'm missing some, but that's basically it.

Poetic titles would include most everything that's in the Litany of Loreto, which are very beautiful and which are understood metaphorically.

There are a huge number of titles relating to places of apparitions (Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Fatima) but as "Private Revelation,", they are not de fide (you don't have to believe them) and they are not the subject of dogma.

"Public revelation", which is de fide, ended with the death of the last Apostle. "Private Revelation" means any supernatural phenomena (visions, dreams, locutions, etc) happening after that. No private revelation is considered de fide --- even if this revelation came to you personally, you would not be obliged to believe it. Even "approved" apparitions (e.g. Fatima) can only confirm, and cannot contradict, that which we believe by Public Revelation.

A lot of people don't "get" that. I'm just making it clear, I hope.

Anything that suggests that Mary is equal to, or even greater than God, would be seriously objectionable. For instance, here on the Religion Forum awhile back, somebody was quoted as saying that it's better to pray to Mary than to Jesus, because her answers are surer and quicker. I think that's heretical. It's certainly not a doctrine of the Church.

The problem with your assertion is that you are mixing together dogmas, poetic metaphors, mystical experiences (private revelation) and statements that are prima facie heretical.

I can see why that happens, because too many Catholic writers are not careful to distinguish one from another. However, it is a mistake which results in wrong conclusions and widespread confusion.

409 posted on 04/21/2015 1:44:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, / Praise Him all people here below.)
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To: rwa265

Thanks for this, rwa.


410 posted on 04/21/2015 1:46:15 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, / Praise Him all people here below.)
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To: DannyTN
But He won't tolerate the sin for ever.

Yes and that is the money line. Not even in someone is dressed as an angel of light.

A religious person's time to decide in favor of the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone better not wait on Purgatory.

(What if all the RCC fellas were actually WRONG --or lying--) and Purgatory doesn't exist. They were. Scripturally, it doesn't. Just the resurrection of the not-born-again-of-the-Spirit dead to face the Great White Throne with no Advocate for them.)
411 posted on 04/21/2015 1:46:55 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: ealgeone

All of the “dubious” quotes provided are from people who the catholic church would consider to be doctors, saints or other reputable people in catholicism.

As I noted earlier this is the problem with catholic tradition. All of these guys could claim they received their authority from the apostles.


Much or what you say is true, but one must keep in mind that not every statement made by every reputable Catholic is in and of itself Sacred Tradition. That’s what prompted my question in post 256 regarding the statement by F.X. Durrwell about Mary as mediatrix of all graces. As for as I know, this has not been affirmed as Catholic doctrine, and, as such, is not Sacred Tradition.


412 posted on 04/21/2015 1:48:02 PM PDT by rwa265
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To: Resettozero; Eucharista
You have got to be kidding, it seems Eucharista (isn't that what is worshiped in "adoration" rooms?) has been around FR for a long time:

Quote:This forum has been in a constant state of stir for decades.

So for 20 or more years?

"In a constant state of stir for decades"---even long before it even existed!

413 posted on 04/21/2015 1:48:52 PM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: rwa265
...but one must keep in mind that not every statement made by every reputable Catholic is in and of itself Sacred Tradition.

Oh, one does. And one doesn't care whether all the RCC clergy can keep their stories straight or not. It's a bogus cult sending _illions to their eternal deaths and eternal separation from the God of love many RCs claim to know and DO NOT.
414 posted on 04/21/2015 1:51:59 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: NYer

This is ridiculous. I did. This is not worth responding to.


415 posted on 04/21/2015 1:55:33 PM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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To: Syncro
So for 20 or more years?

He/she/it was just rounding off to the nearest decade.

(What is it, going on 17 years now?)

BTW, still cannot place which FReeper it was that used that phrase I mentioned above repeatedly. FReepSearch is unfruitful today but I'll try another time maybe.
416 posted on 04/21/2015 1:57:32 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero

And one doesn’t care whether all the RCC clergy can keep their stories straight or not. It’s a bogus cult sending _illions to their eternal deaths and eternal separation from the God of love many RCs claim to know and DO NOT.


I wish you had the same understanding of the Catholic Church that I do. The Church I know is centered on the teachings of Christ and is bringing its followers into communion with Him and His eternal salvation.


417 posted on 04/21/2015 2:11:14 PM PDT by rwa265
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To: Eucharista; RnMomof7
"No Danny, God loves those that are His.."

Now THAT is another Gospel.

Yes it is, it's the Gospel of God.

Amazing that anyone could think that God does not love those that are his, or that he does not hate anyone.

Here's some Bible:

Malachi 1 King James Version (KJV)

The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.

I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

This was posted earlier, did you see it? It's from the Bible
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/09/06/does-god-love-everyone/


418 posted on 04/21/2015 2:19:06 PM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: rwa265
I wish you had the same understanding of the Catholic Church that I do. The Church I know is centered on the teachings of Christ and is bringing its followers into communion with Him and His eternal salvation.

The RCC is NOT! The Holy Spirit of God pointing only to the Word of God IS!

Many RCs have been deceived into a comfortably and carnal Christian-clone religion which is very satisfying to them, beautiful, emotional at times and, at the final Judgment, is a lie.

I tell you the truth.
419 posted on 04/21/2015 2:19:43 PM PDT by Resettozero
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Comment #420 Removed by Moderator


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