Posted on 04/26/2015 7:30:49 AM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
How Scripture proclaims we are saved:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16
Faith? Yes. If you want to find one word which comprises all of these items, and call that word "faith," that's fine with me. A 'real' faith. A 'faithful' faith. A 'living' faith.
Which is to say, being incorporated into Christ. That's what Paul says in Galatians 3:23-29 -- "Heirs according to the promise."
No holier than thou attitude, but neither do I refuse to recognize sin as sin.
There is a very small percentage of people in this fallen world with screwed up chromosomes. In those very rare instances, I’ll give them a pass.
But the transgendered of the world are NOT those whose bodies spontaneously and without any effort on their own part transform. They are the ones who mutilate themselves to try to pretend to be something they are not. In any reasonable world, they would receive help, not support in perversion.
Perhaps YOU need to face reality: the vast majority of transsexuals are not the result of self-transforming bodies, but the result of perversion and perhaps mental illness. And someone calling themselves a Christian does not make them one any more than a man calling himself a woman makes him one.
Jenner had no trouble functioning as a man. His body was and is a man’s body. He has, however, lived for years in a perverted, sexually twisted family, There is no indication he believes in Jesus or what Jesus taught, or accepts the natural world revealed by God to all.
When he claims to be a Christian living as Jesus wants, then he does fall under the judgment of the church:
“But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
I’m interested in this. Kindly send a link to info on children’s sex “changing” at puberty, please?
You seem to be at pains to misrepresent and thereby explain away the reality of what has happened to the people affected by the very unusual genetic change to their sexuality. For example:
“After having read an article on these people, the problem is genetic...Constrained to one family over a few generations...”
You say, “the problem is genetic...Constrained to one family over a few generations....” That statement is false, so it misrepresents the situation. See for example:
“The disorder has been found in blacks, whites, American Indians, and Latin Americans, as well as in families from Malta, Jordan, and Pakistan. Imperato-McGinley et al. (1991) described a cluster of male pseudohermaphrodites in the Simbari Anga linguistic group in the Eastern Highlands of Papua New Guinea. Their studies revealed a phenotypic and biochemical profile similar to that in patients studied in the Dominican Republic, except for a greater abundance of facial and body hair. DHT is responsible for masculinization of the external genitalia of the fetus and for masculinization at puberty. The virilization at puberty in PPSH may be related to the facts that the reductase is not completely absent and that low levels of DHT are found in plasma”.
http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/human_protandry_girls_who_turn_into_boys_revisited/
“One interesting thing is these children were born with ‘not so identifiable’ female genitalia either...So it is not to say these children were born of the opposite gender...If they were born with those parts that were different than both boys and girls, and they all gained the appearance of boys at puberty, seems they should have been raised as boys and not girls...”
All Human beings begin life as a female fetus having the beginnings of female and male sexual organs present in the fetus. While still in the womb, one of the two sexes normally becomes predominant as determined by the sex chromosomes, autosomal factors, hormones, and other factors during gestation. When the conditions for one sex to become predominant occurs the other sexual organs are absorbed and eliminated. When something alters the normal process, the normal process of eliminating the excess sexual organs can result in both sets of sexual organs becoming present at birth or at some point in time after birth.
The extent to which the female genitalia in the affected children of the Batista family varies, and they were not sufficiently described in the sources to clearly indicate their development in the various individuals. Other cases in the Dominican Republic, Papua New Guuinea, and elsewhere around the world vary considerably.
“As far as the DNA is concerned, it sounds like this is a pretty primitive (and old) tribe where testing was possibly not up to par...”
They have been studied extensively, so that is simply not so. Furthermore, DNA and the sex chromosomes do not always fully determine the sexual characteristics of a child. Other events in the womb can alter the sexual characteristics of a child.
“I don’t see how this apparent biological exception to the normal rule could be considered normal for mankind...”
No one ever said these exceptions are normal for all Humans. That is simply a strawman argument. The exceptions do demonstrate Human sexual characteristics are naturally variable and present on average in nearly every substantial community of Human beings. This fact of life then becomes a question under debate among members of the Christian churches with regard to how the exceptional persons and the fellow members of their churches should relate themselves to Christian doctrines.
That’s not true in the South
Ditch Cupertino and come live with kinsman
I’ll even buy you a droid...lol
Most folks down here are Christian and brelievers to varying degrees
Even our Jews are less Bolshie....much less
Caveat.....we got urban issues and bad manners in rural white areas can get you shot
The first article, which was of great interest to me, confirmed the "essentialist" sex/gender understanding, that these sex and affective/behavioral gender are not socially constructed, but innate and genetic:
Human protandry...sex roles not socially constructed
If I am reading this correctly, all the presumptively "girl" children in the Dominican Republic village they researched who developed into men, were actually male genetically from the beginning (XY with SRY, like all males) but, because of an androgen receptor problem, looked like females in terms of external anatomy until puberty.
So they are not really girls turning into men. They always had Y chromosomes; they always had developing testes, not ovaries. But the testes were internal, within the abdomen; they enlarged and forced themselves to the exterior beginning at puberty.
This does not seem to be the case with the vast majority of transgenders now. Certainly not the case with Bruce Jennings.
That, however, does not rule out the possibility of some other external problem, such as endocrine disruption.
Here's a recent FR thread on the subject of endocrine disruptors in the water. They can suppress normal sexual expression in fish, 2-3 generations after exposure.
Yet another study shows: Birth control is reducing the fish population for generations
And humans?
I think we're seeing it now.
For instance, 25% of the baby formula used in the USA is soy-based, despite the fact that soy is a known endocrine disruptor (phytoestrogens).
All of our major watersheds are contaminated with xeno-estrogens, of which the waste effluent of Birth Control Pill and Hormone Replacement users is a significant source.
This is why it is so important NOT to assume that hormonally-confused and gender-fluid effects are a choice. It may very well be a matter of gender-toxins.
In order to respond compassionately and help gender-confused people, we have to locate, prevent, intervene, and remedy the underlying causes, genetic, epigenetic or environmental, which are pathological.
This is the opposite of supporting the LGBT agenda, which insists "it's their right!" rather than "something's wrong".
“PLease send me a link to more information about this syndrome you describe, where children transform into the opposite sex at puberty. Thank you.”
There used to be some fairly neutral medical papers and articles discussing those papers online back around 8 to 15 years ago. Unfortunately, they either no longer appear in the Internet search engine results or their Web servers or Webpages have been removed. There a re still a few less satisfactory Webpages which will have to do for the moment. See one example from a conservative source at:
Human protandry (girls who turn into boys) revisited
http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/human_protandry_girls_who_turn_into_boys_revisited/
An example from the National Institute of Health (NIH):
National Institute of Health (NIH). Genetics Home Reference.
5-alpha reductase deficiency
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency
For examples from the points of view of the intersexed community, see:
Does having a Y chromosome make someone a man?
http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
What’s the difference between being transgender or transsexual and having an intersex condition?
http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender
What is intersex?
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
How common is intersex?
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
Here is an example of the points of views of Catholics in a discussion forum:
Catholic Answers
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=856932
Another Christian viewpoint try to cope with the issue of intersexed Christians:
http://www.betterthanfaith.com/articles/be-a-good-christian-hermaphrodite
Thank you for these resources. This is exactly what I had been looking for.
“So they are not really girls turning into men. They always had Y chromosomes; they always had developing testes, not ovaries. But the testes were internal, within the abdomen; they enlarged and forced themselves to the exterior beginning at puberty.”
Note, that is not entirely accurate with respect to the development of their genitalia. The details of their genitalia varied. Also, the Human fetus begins as a female with female and female sex organs. In the case of the affected Batista children, the female sex organs were supposed to end development and become dissolved while still in the womb. Instead, the female sex organs were not reabsorbed and continued development to birth and after birth, until the onset of a male puberty. The onset of male puberty then more or less triggered the dissolution of the female genitalia which normally would have occurred in the womb during gestation.
As for the assertion the presence of the Y chromosome is definitive in determining the sex of of a child as a male, such an assumption is under medical dispute. For an example of this issue, see:
Does having a Y chromosome make someone a man?
http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
“This does not seem to be the case with the vast majority of transgenders now. Certainly not the case with Bruce Jennings.”
True, it would seem so. Bruce Jenner said there was no genetic component. However, it was not all that many years ago that medical science was unaware of the role of the SRY gene in determining sexual charatersitics. Medical science has already said there are other complex gene expressions they have not yet traced which apparently affect how sexual characteristics are and are not expressed as would otherwise be expected from a particular combination of sexual chromosomes. So, although it may be unlikely, the possibility Bruce Jennings and other people with other related conditions have not been correctly informed, so their genetics and/or other natural causes cannot be entirely excluded as a causative factor in their circumstances.
“That, however, does not rule out the possibility of some other external problem, such as endocrine disruption.”
Yes, although unlikely, such a possibility cannot be entirely excluded with the current state of knowledge.
This does not seem to be the case with the vast majority of transgenders now. Certainly not the case with Bruce Jennings.
“This is the opposite of supporting the LGBT agenda, which insists “it’s their right!” rather than “something’s wrong”.
That, however, does not rule out the possibility of some other external problem, such as endocrine disruption.”
The “LGBT agenda” does not necessarily represent the interests of all intersexed people or even most intersexed people, whether or not they are Christians. Nonetheless, it is often said to be quite a horrible proposition to contemplate how other people presume to have radically different ideas about how they can impose invasive surgery or non-surgical therapies upon a defenseless baby, a child, or an adult without their voluntary wishes. Each person has to imagine what it would be like if some government or other group forcibly or coercively compelled them to submit to an unwanted medical treatment.
But you are, eh???
How Scripture proclaims we are saved:
Since some are correct; I just took a couple out of the center to research...
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
You get saved by coming to a knowledge of the truth??? According to scripture???
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Well you perverted that scripture pretty good...It says AND to come to the knowledge of the truth, NOT 'by' coming to a knowledge of the truth...And the next one???
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Ya sin once and it's over??? I will say with confidence that you don't know any Catholic who has never sinned, including yourself...So it sounds like you are in a heap of trouble
That's what Scripture says.
No it doesn't...
Jenner fully developed into a male and now wants to be a female...
Sounds more mental than biological...
Isn't Christ the Way, the Truth and the Life? Is there any way you can be saved without knowledge of Christ, i.e. the Truth?
About the Hebrews verses:
"Ya sin once and it's over???"
I just quoted the Scripture. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the guy who wrote Hebrews. (And by the way, I don't say "Ya sinned once and it's over.")
I would be foolish to claim to be a theologian: I have often said I'm just a kid in the Peanut Gallery, repeating what others have said. However, the one thing that I notice, whenever I post this list of how Scripture says we are saved, is that nobody ever rises to the task of showing how they could all be true, i.e. harmonizing and combining the different aspects which are reflected in this multiplicity of verses.
I suggested two ways:
"And though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
We even love, and do good works, by grace. So there you go.
*By the way, this is the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" is found: "NOT by faith alone"
In fact, if the surgery is not actually therapeutic, it can be seriously argued that it might be considered mutilation, even though it produced cosmetically preferred external genitalia.
Ordinarily, the human body is not to be cut and rearranged, except for theraeutic reasons, and (of course) with consent.
“I’m not interested in getting into it that deeply...But one thing that was mentioned in the article I read was that when these male/female bodies fully developed into males, they happily took on the role of men and fathers...”
Their medical histories are unusual even among unusual cases of 5-alpha reductase deficiency. For example, the incidence of fatherhood is different. See the NIH article:
[Quote]
What is 5-alpha reductase deficiency?
5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.
Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias).
During puberty, people with this condition develop some secondary sex characteristics, such as increased muscle mass, deepening of the voice, development of pubic hair, and a growth spurt. The penis and scrotum (the sac of skin that holds the testes) grow larger. Unlike many men, people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency do not develop much facial or body hair. Most affected males are unable to father a child (infertile).
Children with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are often raised as girls. About half of these individuals adopt a male gender role in adolescence or early adulthood....
[Unquote]
Note that male fertility and the adoption of a male gender role among persons with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are far from being foregone conclusions.
“Jenner fully developed into a male and now wants to be a female...”
Yes, it would appear to be so at first glance. However, the presumption “Jenner fully developed into a male” may or may not be a correct presumption, given what we are in the early stages of discovering about the development and functioning of the Human brain.
“Sounds more mental than biological...”
Our ability to discriminate between “mental” and “biological” causative factors is still in the primitive stages of scientific investigation. What we do know now gives strong reason to give recognition about how much we do not know about the effects of Human biology upon Human behavior. Take for example as a starting point the biology of Freemartin cattle:
[Quote]
What is a “Freemartin”?
Freemartinism is recognized as one of the most severe forms of sexual abnormality among cattle. This condition causes infertility in the female cattle born twin to a male. When a heifer twin shares the uterus with a bull fetus, they also share the placental membranes connecting the fetuses with the dam.
A joining of the placental membranes occurs at about the fortieth day of pregnancy, and thereafter, the fluids of the two fetuses are mixed. This causes exchange of blood and antigens carrying characteristics that are unique to each heifers and bulls. When these antigens mix, they affect each other in a way that causes each to develop with some characteristics of the other sex.
Although the male twin in this case is rarely affected by reduced fertility, in over ninety percent of the cases, the female twin is completely infertile. Because of a transfer of hormones or a transfer of cells, the heifer’s reproductive tract is severely underdeveloped and sometimes even contains some elements of a bull’s reproductive
tract. A freemartin is genetically female, but has many characteristics of a male. The ovaries of the freemartin do not develop correctly, and they remain very small. Also, the ovaries of a freemartin do not produce the hormones necessary to induce the behavioral signs of heat. The external vulvar region can range from a very normal
looking female to a female that appears to be male. Usually, the vulva is normal except that in some animals an enlarged clitoris and large tufts of vulvar hair exist.
Freemartinism cannot be prevented; however, it can be diagnosed in a number of ways ranging from simple examination of the placental membranes to chromosomal
evaluation. The cattleman can predict the reproductive val
ue of this heifer calf at birth and save the feed and development costs if he is aware of the high probability of
freemartinism. In some cases, there are no symptoms of freemartinism because the male twin may have been aborted at an earlier stage of gestation.
Estimates of the percentage of natural beef cattle births that produce twins vary. One estimate (Gilmore) puts the percentage at about .5% or 1 in every 200 births. Approximately one - half of the sets of twins should contain both a bull and a heifer calf.
(Source: “The Causes and Effects of Freemartinism in Cattle” by Laurie Ann Lyon.)
Source - Glenn Selk, Oklahoma State University Emeritus Extension
[Unquote]
Note where the source says: “A joining of the placental membranes occurs at about the fortieth day of pregnancy, and thereafter, the fluids of the two fetuses are mixed. This causes exchange of blood and antigens carrying characteristics that are unique to each heifers and bulls. When these antigens mix, they affect each other in a way that causes each to develop with some characteristics of the other sex.” In Humans this exposure or lack of exposure to various factors during a pregnancy can cause various combinations of feminization and/or masculinization of the brain functions which may or may not have corresponding changes in the genitalia and other sexual functions. Given the fact the ability to medically observe and recognize differences in the structures between female and male brains is only a very recent accomplishment and rudimentary at best, the ability to detect and identify the gestational changes in the Human brain producing changes in sexual characteristics and behavior is beyond the capabilities of current medical science. What we can know, however, is that biochemical changes can and do cause physical and mental differences in the Human brain. Precisely what those changes may have to do with Human sexual expressions remains to be discovered, but the medical science has already begun to develop some tools capable of investigating the brain’s influence upon such Human behavior. See:
Prenatal endocrine influences on sexual orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior
Melissa Hines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/
I don’t know if you consider Texas and Oklahoma “the South”, but that’s my area of experience, so that’s what I was referring to in the previous post. I also compare that to Oregon, in one of the most unchurched areas of the country.
They are definitely two different cultures, but in terms of Christianity in each of those areas ... I find that in Oregon (in the Willamette Valley) that the overall culture is not Christian and the Christian Community itself is dedicated and committed.
On the other hand, the culture, itself, in Texas and Oklahoma is definitely Christian in appearance overall, but it’s not ...mat the core of salvation itself. It’s “assumed” ... almost by simply “being there”. There’s a lot of talk about Bible things, but it’s shallow and many don’t really realize what salvation is about. That’s not to say there are not dedicated Christians, because there are, but they are still a subset of the larger community.
There are a whole lot of people in this area (I’m in Tulsa, but also from Texas, too) who think they are “good people” (in relation to other losers and bad people) and are, as a result, “saved”.
So, the larger community in these states are behaviorally “Christians” which would be in their cultural values and actions, and these actions do make for a good society overall (so no complaints there) ... but so many are not really Christian. They are people who have good values for our society.
It’s quite amazing to see this, but the term I use is that the majority of the society in those areas are “cultural Christians”. I would say that perhaps 20%, maybe 25% are saved, per the Bible, in the area I’m in. And in Oregon (where I was in the past), perhaps 10%, maybe 15% are saved. The cultures in the two different areas are quite different though.
This is simply my own direct experience and observations and how I would put “numbers” to it.
I spent a lot of time in Oregon, and it was always quite nice to be around committed and truly saved people there, as in the general population you would not have casual conversations about things of the Bible (your coworkers, neighbors, people on the street, going out on “visitations” etc.).
But in Texas and Oklahoma, you can be at MacDonalds or Target or Kohls or Neiman Marcus and people will be talking about praying for you or what’s going on at church, or talking about Jesus. The only thing about that, is that with many, if you dig down a little bit, with some conversation, you find out that they don’t know the Gospel, don’t realize why they are saved, if they are ... and what the basis of salvation is (namely only in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, solely ... and not on being good or doing good things for others, or simply “trying to be good” or other variations).
I’ve gone back and forth between these two areas and it’s amazing for me to see the “cultural Christianity” in Texas and Oklahoma (in which there are people with good cultural values, but no salvation - again, not all) as compared with the Pacific Northwest. Someone ought to do a study on it ... :-) ...
—
As far as being in or from Cupertino, I’ve only visited down in San Francisco. I’ve had fun seeing the sights and riding my bicycle around San Francisco and even over to Sausalito. I wouldn’t want to live down there, but visiting is all right. I do like the Pacific Northwest though. And I always found dedicated and true Christians to be around, in that area.
Here in Tulsa, it’s a little bit more troublesome, though, in finding the true Christians, because a lot of people talk casually about Jesus. It takes a bit more work and investigation here. I have to talk a bit more, here in Tulsa, before I find out.
As far as Jews, well I’ve primarily mixed with Messianic Jews, although I was looking at going to a Jewish Center here to get some conversational Hebrew down, while I also learn some Biblical Hebrew. I understand that the Jewish Center does something like immersion Hebrew.
And ... being from Oklahoma and Texas, I know about the gun culture. In Oklahoma we’ve got Open Carry here, while Texas is still working on it, I hear.
BUT ... when you talk about “droid” the only thing I think is “Star Wars”. I have an iPhone and an iPad, two excellent and great devices ... the best quality you can get, with great customer service, unmatched in the industry.
Nope...Faith without works, lest any any man should boast...
That's faith alone...
I would be foolish to claim to be a theologian: I have often said I'm just a kid in the Peanut Gallery, repeating what others have said. However, the one thing that I notice, whenever I post this list of how Scripture says we are saved, is that nobody ever rises to the task of showing how they could all be true, i.e. harmonizing and combining the different aspects which are reflected in this multiplicity of verses.
They certainly are not true when you mis quote the scriptures and try to pass that off as the truth...
That is correct as far as it goes. However, the social pressure for sexual conformity within a religious community and/or socialization as an adolescent and an adult has very strongly motivated the medical community to counsel parents to grant permission for life altering surgeries, drugs, and other treatments in an effort to make the sexual presentation conform to some arbitrary decision. This social pressure varies in different cultural settings. The Batista family lived in a cultural setting where the social pressure permitted the affected children to adapt to their circumstances and participate in their church and other social activities without a shame that destroys their mental health and life. In other cultures, the shame imposed upon the child an dthe child’s family by social pressure tends to motivate a medical intervention. In some Ancient Greek cultures such as Sparta, such childdren were simply killed outright, often by exposure to the elements and scavengers.
See:
What’s wrong with the way intersex has traditionally been treated?
http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment
Also see:
Who was David Reimer (also, sadly, known as “John/Joan”)?
http://www.isna.org/faq/reimer
Oh mercy. "YEP."
Even worse is the concept of faith without love.
Ya could look this up, too (LINK).
You will notice I did not misquote Scriptures. That's documented at the links.
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