Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: paladinan
Where, exactly, do any Jewish authorities claim infallibility of any stripe (much less the specific type which is entrusted to the Catholic Church)? Chapter and verse, please, since you're "sola Scriptura" types...

Well, there in fact is the problem - It isn't in the Bible for them any more than it is for y'all. You haven't read the Talmud, have you?

BUT, it isn't quite the same - Judaism assumes the infallibility of their great rabbis because of their great knowledge - more like your 'doctors' than your magisterium and pope... Maybe a bit less of a political nature for the Jews, though I guess their Sanhedrin makes up for that (It too, considers itself infallible)... But you should read the Talmud (and the Mishna). It might just astound you at the similiarities. A bunch of silly men claiming to be more than they are, in order to convince themselves that they are more than they are...

But the point is, just like some of your own, the rabbis have said that if they say the sky is green, then you'd better believe it, and in their hubris have declared that even YHWH must bow to their declarations... Infallibility per se, as who can have greater knowledge than the teachers of the knowledge? See, theirs is circular too...

And at the local level, the 'seat of Moses' was much like your 'chair of Peter' = When the chief rabbi spoke from the seat of Moses, that settled the matter. Period. I do not subscribe to the idea that there was a supreme Seat of Moses, though there may well have been, in the context of the Sanhedrin or the Temple... There is legend to that effect, but nothing substantial enough to call true - But still, the concept remains.

Thankfully, the Rabbi to which I am enjoined tore that entire system down... Too bad all y'all didn't get the memo. The power to bind and loose cannot destroy Torah, as that is the instrument defining the power at all... That is the sin of the Pharisees. Again, back to the original contract...

1,073 posted on 05/04/2015 4:23:26 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 812 | View Replies ]


To: roamer_1
Well, there in fact is the problem - It isn't in the Bible for them any more than it is for y'all.

You do remember that it would only be a "problem" for sola Scriptura types... right? Those who don't subscribe to that illogical and unbiblical idea of Luther aren't particularly bothered by a lack of explicit "chapter/verse" references.

You haven't read the Talmud, have you?

What makes you say that? Yes, I have, in fact... though it's been a while. (My Mom's side of the family is Jewish, BTW.)

BUT, it isn't quite the same - Judaism assumes the infallibility of their great rabbis because of their great knowledge - more like your 'doctors' than your magisterium and pope...

That's hardly an accurate representation of either Judaism or Catholicism. Jews never asserted infallibility for their teachers at ALL--not even to famous and skilled ones such as Gamaliel (though they ascribed great weight to them, if they were good ones); and Catholics do not ascribe infallibility to doctors of the Church. Only the pope (or the bishops in union with the pope), when defining dogma which is binding on the entire Church, has the protection of infallibility.

But you should read the Talmud (and the Mishna).

I've read the Mishna, as well... no fear. :)

It might just astound you at the similiarities.

Hm. I'm thinking that you're overestimating that, and you're not quite getting an accurate picture of either one; see above.

A bunch of silly men claiming to be more than they are, in order to convince themselves that they are more than they are...

Oh, come now! Surely you see that this is merely your raw opinion/editorial? It would be just as inaccurate (and just as inflammatory) to say something like, "Look at all those Protestants... a bunch of silly little men, cobbling together their own personal religion from their own personal opinions which they inject into Scripture at their whim!"

But the point is, just like some of your own, the rabbis have said that if they say the sky is green, then you'd better believe it, and in their hubris have declared that even YHWH must bow to their declarations...

Um... I think, with all due respect, that you're indulging in some of the very thing you accuse THEM of using; you're "declaring" that the rabbis (as a whole) are arrogant phonies... and we're supposede to believe that because... why? Because you say so? I'm sure that some rabbis (as well as some Catholic clergy, some Protestant clergy, some atheists, some Muslims, some Buddhists, etc.) ARE arrogant phonies; but I don't think anyone is in any position to "tar" them all with the same broad brush.

Infallibility per se,

Hold on. "Infallibility" (at least in the Catholic sense) is a technical term, which can't just be cobbled together out of opinions; it's not valid to say, "Well, that's infallibility, for all intents and purposes!" No... either something meets the strict standards for infallibility, or it does not.

as who can have greater knowledge than the teachers of the knowledge? See, theirs is circular too...

First: the rabbis didn't consider themselves infallible, as a rule (or else there would have been no possibility of debate, and no "quoting of other scholars and opinions" which made Jesus' teaching with authority so striking to the crowds of His day). Second, there's no equivalence between the rabbinic approach and the charism of infallibility (in the Catholic sense), aside from the fact that some FR commenters don't happen to like either of them.

And at the local level, the 'seat of Moses' was much like your 'chair of Peter' = When the chief rabbi spoke from the seat of Moses, that settled the matter. Period.

It was "much like", yes... in terms of AUTHORITY. It was NOT "much alike" in terms of infallibility (which the Jews never claimed for themselves), and the infallibility of the pope is quite distinct from the AUTHORITY of the pope, anyway.

Thankfully, the Rabbi to which I am enjoined tore that entire system down... Too bad all y'all didn't get the memo.

:) Er... FRiend... that same "Rabbi" built His Church, and safeguarded it against the gates of Hades! St. Matthew (via the Holy Spirit) sent you a memo to that effect, yes? (Matthew 16:18)

The power to bind and loose cannot destroy Torah,

Of course not; nor can papal infallibility change even the tiniest bit of Divine Revelation. Did you think otherwise?
1,121 posted on 05/05/2015 10:52:02 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1073 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson