So nah...We certainly know it isn't referring to baptism since born and water do not mean baptism... Aside from raw opinion, why would you say that? I've yet to see even a beginning of a proof for that claim... and please do look at my previous post, re: your confusion about the words, and my use of them.
It is well established by the Greek texts as well as any dictionary in existence in the world that 'water' nor 'born' means baptism...You have admitted that yourself yet out of the other side of your mouth you claim you fail to see any proof for that claim...
Jesus is talking about two births...One of water and one of the Spirit...Count 'em...
I see nothing in the text which requires that, much less proves that. Baptism is the way by which one is born "of water and the Spirit" in one and the same instance... and you've shown nothing to counter that idea, at all.
The first reason is because of the word 'and'...Water AND the Spirit are two separate things...
Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again...
...born "anothen" (which can mean "again", or "from above")--Jesus obviously meant the latter, since He chides Nicodemus for assuming that it meant the former.
Oh brother!!!
So according to you, Jesus says to Nicodemus, 'You must be born from above'...And Nicodemus responds,
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
You don't need any bible study...You don't even need any common sense to get that...
Jesus says, you gotta be born from above and Nic says, How's my mother going to get pregnant and have me pop out of her womb, again????
There's no connection...No reason for Nicodemus to think Jesus was talking about a natural birth by saying the new birth was from above...
But by following the text, we can see that when Jesus said 'born again', it would be natural to assume Jesus was speaking of a natural birth, the second time...
I see nothing in the text which requires that, much less proves that. Baptism is the way by which one is born "of water and the Spirit" in one and the same instance... and you've shown nothing to counter that idea, at all.
Baptism is NOT being born of water...No one was ever born of water by being baptized in water...Only in the minds of Catholics, I guess...
Baptism is NOT being born of water...No one was ever born of water by being baptized in water...Only in the minds of Catholics, I guess...
But baptism IS being born again of water and the Spirit...and people are born of the Spirit through water. See, e.g., John 3, Acts 2, Galatians 3, Colossians 2, Romans 6, 1 Peter 3...
Far from just a Catholic view...also Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist... basically the entire Christian Church for the first sixteen or seventeen centuries...
[Iscool]
So nah...We certainly know it isn't referring to baptism since born and water do not mean baptism...
[paladinan]
Aside from raw opinion, why would you say that? I've yet to see even a beginning of a proof for that claim... and please do look at my previous post, re: your confusion about the words, and my use of them.
[Iscool]
It is well established by the Greek texts as well as any dictionary in existence in the world that 'water' nor 'born' means baptism...
I really and truly fail to understand how anyone could have
a clear answer handed to them, REPEATEDLY, but then continue to ignore that answer and resume repeating the mistaken (and--forgive me--silly) statement which started the mess in the first place.
You have admitted that yourself yet out of the other side of your mouth you claim you fail to see any proof for that claim...
Just checking: are you actually talking to the commenter named "paladinan"? That statement of yours has about as much connection to reality as does the statement, "Nuclear-powered penguins are demanding voting rights, paladinan, and you've done nothing in this conversation to prove that!" Of COURSE, I "admitted" that baptism =/= water... because you were the one who wrote that bizarre and false idea, in the first place! It's a bit strange for you to say that I "admitted" that your false attribution to me was... well... wrong. As I said earlier. Repeatedly.
Say it again, with me: ...WITH water. WITH water. WITH water. Repetition is the mother of learning. Keep going. :)
Jesus is talking about two births...One of water and one of the Spirit...Count 'em...
Yessir... and the Bible talks about three Gods... the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Count 'em. :) Unless, of course, you might simply be mistaken?
[paladinan]
I see nothing in the text which requires that, much less proves that. Baptism is the way by which one is born "of water and the Spirit" in one and the same instance... and you've shown nothing to counter that idea, at all.
[Iscool]
The first reason is because of the word 'and'...Water AND the Spirit are two separate things...
Um... that makes no sense, FRiend. The word "OR" might have implied two different things... but "AND" usually implies that the two things come together, as a package-deal, so to speak. As I said, earlier. Right?
[Iscool]
Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again...
[paladinan]
...born "anothen" (which can mean "again", or "from above")--Jesus obviously meant the latter, since He chides Nicodemus for assuming that it meant the former.
[Iscool]
Oh brother!!! So according to you, Jesus says to Nicodemus, 'You must be born from above'...And Nicodemus responds, Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Yes. Did you catch the Greek word, "anothen"? For someone who was talking earlier about things being "well-established in the Greek texts", you're certainly not using those texts very much, here; get your Greek lexicon and look up the word "anothen"--even Strong's gets it relatively right. It has a double-meaning, depending on the context: it CAN mean "again", but it also CAN mean "from above". Is that a bit more clear? That's called "an ambiguous word"... a bit like the word "fresh" (which can mean "cool and rejuvinated", or it can also mean "crude and socially pushy, especially in sexual ways"). When Nicodemus chose the wrong meaning, Jesus went on to clarify.
But by following the text, we can see that when Jesus said 'born again', it would be natural to assume Jesus was speaking of a natural birth, the second time....
What "text" are you following? The English translation which you happen to use? Don't you see what you've just done? You've abandoned the "Greek texts" which you thought were so useful, earlier, and you're running off with some idea of, "Well, Jesus obviously said 'born AGAIN'!". The Greek text uses the very same word--"anothen"--in all three occurrences in the Gospel of John. If Jesus meant "born from above" in the first occurrence, then it's eminently reasonable to conclude that He meant the same thing in repeat occurrences; and when St. John the Baptist uses it in John 3:31, it's painfully clear that it's being used in the sense of "from above":
"He who comes from above [Gk: anothen] is above all; he who is of the earth belongs to the earth, and of the earth he speaks; He who comes from heaven is above all."
Do you see how the text clearly contrasts "from above" with "belonging to earth"? And do you also see how the text clearly matches "from above" with "above all"? The next sentence is an even stronger restatement of the previous one: "He who comes from Heaven (which is "above", in the spitual sense) is ABOVE all".
Baptism is NOT being born of water...
St. Peter (1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47), St. Paul (Ephesians 5:26, Titus 3:5, etc.), St. Philip (Acts 8:36-38) St. Ananias (Acts 9:18), and every last Greek dictionary on earth disagree with you, FRiend (to say nothing of Church history). Acts 10:47 is especially clear: ""Can any one forbid
water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
So... can you admit that Baptism INVOLVES water, at least? And no, you aren't compelled to believe that Baptism EQUALS water, any more than a kiss EQUALS my wife. You just need to believe that baptism, which saves us (1 Peter 3:21), is done WITH water.
No one was ever born of water by being baptized in water...
(*sigh*) Not if you don't count the billions of people throughout the ages and throughout the world who have been reborn that way, I guess...
>
Only in the minds of Catholics, I guess...
...and Eastern Orthodox, and Anglicans, and most Lutherans, and Methodists, and most members of the Reformed traditions, and others which add up to outnumber your view by at least four to one. Yep. :)