Removing Jesus

White Horse Inn ^ | June 1, 2014 | Timothy F. Kauffman

[Elsie]

The Mormons teach that Jesus was the product of sexual reproduction.

But will ANY of them have the gonads to discuss it??

Mormons deny the virgin birth of Mary:

The Mormon Church Teaches That:	Our God is an exalted man of flesh and bone He physically lives with His many wives near the star Kolob Worthy Mormon men can also become Gods, like Him Our God is one of many Gods and serves a God of His own! God came down to earth in the flesh and was the physical father of Jesus You should not trust the Bible in this matter. It is wrong. Trust their prophets. Read what the Mormon leaders say about our Savior and the Virgin Mary.
How can Mormons claim they believe in the virgin birth if God had sex with Mary?	They change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase "virgin birth" because God was an IMMORTAL being who had sex with Mary, not a mere mortal man. And this is exactly what Bruce McConkie, (top LSD theologian, and one of the Mormon 12 Apostles, died in 1985) said: "For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466). In other words, if Joseph had sex with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had sex with Mary, she remains a virgin. By "Virgin birth", Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin!

B. Gods Must Have Wives

• If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

C. Mary And God Were Married

• The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

D. Joseph was Her Second Husband

• Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in the mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
• The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:268)

E. The Bible Is Wrong

• Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Prophet of the Mormon Church: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)

F. God Is A Man

• "Christ was begotten of God. He was NOT born without the aid of man and that man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)

G. An Act Of The Flesh

• The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood- was begotten of his Father, as we are of our fathers. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 8:115)
• In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of discourses, 8:211)

H. Not Of The Holy Ghost

• ''When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
• 'What a learned idea' Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
• 'Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, hat Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject when I replied to this idea- "If the son was begotten y the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females and give the Holy Ghost o them, lest he should beget children to be palmed off on the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties."...But what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know but this subject? Comparatively Nothing." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)

I. Bruce R. McConkie, deceased member of the 12 Apostles (d.1985) and leading LDS theologian, writes in Mormon Doctrine:

• SON OF GOD: God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says.—page 742
• SON OF MAN: Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the eternal God!) is a Holy Man. "In the language of Adam, Man of Holiness" is the name of God. Page 742
• SON OF MARY: ...but the Holy ghost is not the Father of Christ and when the Child was born, he was "the Son of the eternal Father. —page 743
• ONLY BEGOTTEN SON: These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, begotten means begotten, and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in He same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. —page 546

 

From here --->  http://www.bible.ca/mor-god-had-sex-with-mary.htm

[Elsie]

Constantine had nothing to do with Christian Eucharistic theology. He did legalize Christianity and gave public buildings to Christians as houses of worship,

Sound like a VERY big 'something' to me!

[Elsie]

That comes with understood repsonsibilities and privileges, one of which is sex.

The words "Hot Springs tonight!" had long been washed off of the donkey's side by the time they Holy Couple arrived at the stable...

[Elsie]

You’ll notice nobody’s in error about the meaning of the term “Mother of God” except that it is NOWHERE found in Scripture.

[Elsie]

He can not just bilocate, He can omnilocate. <>Physically?

Got any DATA?

[Elsie]

The Catholic presumption that Mary took a perpetual vow of virginity as a young girl presumes ...

Rome 'presumes' an awful lot of things that are NOT found in the bible.

This is why I do NOT follow all of it's teachings.

[MamaB]

Thank you. I learned a lot. There are not very many Mormons around here. In fact, a SBC bought the Mormon church next door and connected the two.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The paradox about Mary's engagement to Joseph, followed by her impregnation by the Holy Spirit, is that, from worldly sense, it could be said that she's cuckolding innocent Joseph. I can't see it that way --- it would be gravely dishonorable --- and it seems the key is that she was not (in the full sense) married to Joseph (their union was not consummated), nor had she ever intended to consummate it.

Therefore she was not violating his exclusive conjugal right.

There is textual support for that understanding, as you know, because there it is at

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3304228/posts?page=56#56

Hannah, Sarah, Samson's mother --- they all assumed that when they got marvelous news that they were going to become pregnant, it meant they would of course get pregnant by their husbands. "Whoa, what??! How am I going to get pregnant? How can this be?" is not a question that occurred to them. It would have been rather bizarre if it had. They had spouses, and they knew where babies come from.

But that was Mary's reaction. The only possible explanations are, either that (1) she did not know that marriage to Joseph meant sexual union and, consequently, an expected pregnancy (she "didn't know where babies come from") or (2) though betrothed to Joseph, she was committed to virginity and expected no pregnancy.

Is there any other explanation for Mary, a young, betrothed woman, being "troubled" and surprised when she was told that she would bear a son?

[Mrs. Don-o]

It's that omnipotence thingy.

Romans 1:20
"Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made."

[MHGinTN]

When a religion is hallmarked by magic thinking, any imagination can be made dogma.

[Mrs. Don-o]

But the concept is there; just as the word “Trinity” is found nowhere in the Bible, but the concept is there.

[MHGinTN]

Ah, I see your point!

[Mrs. Don-o]

For Constantine to provide legality, houses of worship and civil protection to Christians IS actually pretty important, but that doesn't make Constantine a Catholic theologian. It makes him a wise though unbaptized, pagan ruler who knows how to keep civil order.

[RnMomof7]

Excellent post ..

Therefore, if one is going to go by the conjugal rights angle, The Holy Spirit would have been impregnating a woman whose conjugal rights were already spoken for, thus making, (and I'm sure the RC's will jump all over this one) the Holy Spirit and Mary both adulterers in having some sort of conjugal relationship with an already legally. married woman.

I believe Joseph Smith thought the Holy Spirit had intercourse with Mary ...

[RnMomof7]

As for Mary, she had a serious reason to abstain with Joseph, because it was God who had a conjugal right to her.

I wondered how Joseph felt about this ???

Catholics have a strange view of sex.. it is not considered a sacred type of of Gods relationship with the saved ... it is a function with which to have children.. One poster here told me that if a couple uses birth control the sex is nothing but "mutual masterbation" ...I always thought the reason for the "perpetual virginity" nonsense was the men that developed it did not like the thought of a man in the same vagina that had given birth to Christ.. never mind that it was he that created it ...

[StormPrepper]

http://www.mentalhealth.gov/get-help/

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/anxiety/obssessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd.htm

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“nor had she ever intended to consummate it. “

Ah the mind reading! Does the RM know about this?

:-)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Lastly, the “ever-virgin” argument boils down to, “The Church believes this because the Church has always believed this.” “

And yet I await any evidence that the Church EVER believed this before 100 ad... how’s it coming?

If the Church didn’t believe it before 100 ad, it is a later invention - of pagan origin. So far, there is no evidence to demonstrate the original church ever believed it.

Best.

[CynicalBear]

Well said!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I always thought the reason for the “perpetual virginity” nonsense was the men that developed it did not like the thought of a man in the same vagina that had given birth to Christ.. never mind that it was he that created it ... “

I think there is a better answer.

The human heart craves a relationship with God.
Once paganism crept into the Roman church and turned the glorious Gospel of Grace into a system of religious works, there was no more intimate relationship.

It was a celestial hamster wheel of sacraments, stations, genuflection, rote words, mumbled songs, etc.

At the same time, there arose the pagan infusion of multiple demigods - including the Demigoddess Mary.

You may not be “good enough to have a relationship with God that allows you to know and approach Him securely in that relationship, but fortunately (!), you can approach the Demigoddess Mary and she is good enough to hook you up with God. He can, after all, never resister her!

To be a demigoddess, you must have no sin, you must not be defiled by common urges or desires (sex, orgasm, etc.). You must be above humanity, but lower than God. You must have superpowers to hear everyone simultaneously. You must be able to perform miracles yourself. There are shrines to you. You are now a co-redemtrix. You will rule over the sun and moon and stars.

Pagans were comfortable coming into the Roman church with its syncronism and pagan rituals. Catholics accepted them. Here we are.

It is sad.