Posted on 07/09/2015 9:33:36 AM PDT by RnMomof7
If making false statements about what we teach — whether we are right to do so or not — is the way to live in Christ, then we do have a problem.
Well, good. In that case you will understand why I don’t say that the doctrine says the elements become the “actual” body and blood.
Matthew 26: 26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. [Young's Literal Translation]
Mark 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”
23 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 “This is my blood of thec covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. 25 “Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
26 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.Luke 22:14 And when the hour come, he reclined (at meat), and the twelve apostles with him, 15 and he said unto them, ‘With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you before my suffering, 16 for I say to you, that no more may I eat of it till it may be fulfilled in the reign of God.’ 17 And having taken a cup, having given thanks, he said, ‘Take this and divide to yourselves, 18 for I say to you that I may not drink of the produce of the vine till the reign of God may come.’ 19 And having taken bread, having given thanks, he brake and gave to them, saying, ‘This is my body, that for you is being given, this do ye — to remembrance of me.’ 20 In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, ‘This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.
Paul offers to the Corinthians what he was instructed regarding this same Passover Seder REMEMBRANCE:,P.
1 Cor 11:23 For I — I received from the Lord that which also I did deliver to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, 24 and having given thanks, he brake, and said, ‘Take ye, eat ye, this is my body, that for you is being broken; this do ye — to the remembrance of me.’ 25 In like manner also the cup after the supping, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood; this do ye, as often as ye may drink [it] — to the remembrance of me;’ 26 for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth — till he may come;
That may be a little hard to follow, so here is the World English version:
23For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. 24When he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me." 25In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me." 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Jesus came to bring something better than a new set of symbols.
What were they doing when he said “this”?
Not literal enough for the ‘selective literalism’ crowd ...
Aquinas is the authority on what the doctrine MEANS, not on whether it is true.
So, if somebody says that we hold that someone passes into the sewers, that someone cannot be the risen Lord, because we don't teach that about him.
Now, we may be quite as evil and deluded as you say. But we are not yet quite so lost as to think that we both officially teach a thing and teach its contrary.
So, whatever the truth concerning the bread and wine IS, the truth about our teaching — about what we teach, rightly or wrongly, is that the Real Presence only coincides with bread, and when the bread becomes something other than bread, the Real or substantial presence is not attached to that something.
So, I am not addressing the disagreement on the truth or falsehood of the dogma. I am saying that the dogma was misrepresented. If misrepresentation is not something we would want to try to avoid, that seems a funny way to walk in the way of Truth.
I don't feel confident about using a word that pertains to “act.” I'd need to see the theology worked out. I am fine with “real” and “really.” “True” and “truly” work for me I strongly deprecate “literally,” and disagree with “physically.”
You seem to use the notion of “word games” disparagingly. But vocabulary, even jargon, is an essential part of the “logos” of Theology. If people are going to falsely claim that we hold that the body of Christ goes into the sewers, then that falsehood needs to be addressed, I think. And, I suspect that the misunderstanding arises from a misunderstanding about words, words like “real” and “substantial.”
Aquinas is KIND of an authority for Catholics on the Truth of our theology.
But he is almost THE authority for the content of our doctrine. Even if, arguendo, we stipulate that the dogma is false, whenwe look into what exactly is falso about it, we have to go to Aquinas to find what the particular false teaching is.
If I were to say that automobiles run on hummus, and you were to say that I say they run on beanspouts, both statements are wrong, but you are also wrong to say I was saying my car ran on beansprouts.
All Im doing here, other than disagreeing with the post, is saying that I never said my car runs on sprouts. I said it runs on hummus. No one who keeps on arguing about sprouts is going to help me with my hummus problem.
Got it. Thanks.
Gotta leave you now.
And?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.