Posted on 08/01/2015 8:31:02 AM PDT by Salvation
Monsignor Pope OSV column Ping.
Jesus is enough. In the OT only one priest was needed between the person and God. For us, Jesus is the one. No other is needed. He makes intercession for us Himself.
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:33-34 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Hebrews 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Not true at all...Where did this crazy idea come from...It's certainly not biblical...If fact, it is anti-biblical
Jesus is now sitting on the throne of Grace...When the veil was ripped open, we all have access to that throne of Grace...
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
What is clear from this discourse is the complete failure of the author to understand what it actually means to be a Christian...He doesn't understand the mystery of the church...
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Apparently this is another allegory to your religion...
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
This is the mystery that was revealed to the church...
We do not have to go to heaven (although we have a presence there) to be at the throne of Grace...We do not have to go into a building to find Jesus and be in his presence...We don't need a priest (or Mary or a Saint) to pass on a message to Jesus for us...WE ARE ALREADY THERE...
We are at the throne of Grace, beyond the ripped veil every minute of every day regardless of where we are at...HE is right inside of us...
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If God is not within you as Paul taught to the church, you do not belong to Jesus...
Your comment: “Jesus is enough. In the OT only one priest was needed between the person and God. For us, Jesus is the one. No other is needed. He makes intercession for us Himself.”
So why did Jesus have Apostles and gave them the command to go out and Preach and Baptize all?
Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20i teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Matthew 28
Your comment: “If God is not within you as Paul taught to the church, you do not belong to Jesus...”
Perhaps you do not accept that Jesus was a great leader and formed His Church through the Apostles and their successors.
Didn’t Jesus command his Apostles and their successors to go teach and Baptize all?
You may feel the opportunity to reach Jesus on your own, but you shouldn’t discount Catholic priests that are following the path of Jesus and the apostles.
Is this a catholic caucus thread?
I went to pray at a Planned Parenthood center (I won’t call them clinics since that implies health care) this morning. There were about 100 people saying the rosary and holding signs and one man with a megaphone verbally abusing anyone driving by accusing the customers and employees of the center of various sins and accusing those of us praying the rosary of idolatry. He was a troll and reminded me of Fred Phelps. But in other words, pretty much everyone there was a Catholic except this person and he was being pretty evil. Made me happy to be Catholic. I don’t know why some people think that if he/she yells loud enough and abusively enough, I might change my mind.
God bless you for praying in front of Planned Parenthood. Groups of 100 are going to close them down, that’s for sure.
Jesus did NOT form his church thru the initial apostles or their successors...The church Jesus was working on was an all Jewish church...The church that we have now is the church that Jesus layed out for Paul to reveal to us...The church that allows Catholics to join...
Jesus was teaching Jews...No Gentiles...
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Do you believe ANY THING the bible says...Why do you suppose Jesus had the disciples and apostles write this stuff???
Didn’t Jesus command his Apostles and their successors to go teach and Baptize all?
Context, Context, Context...
The apostles knew nothing of the (future) Gentile church...Jesus was teaching that he would go away and return the 2nd time...To rule as their King...They knew nothing of a 2000 wait for Jesus to return...
Jesus told the apostles to go to Jerusalem and WAIT...That when he returned the apostles would go into the world and baptize people...
The apostles went to Jerusalem and waited...For years...they didn't go anywhere let alone go into the world...They were waiting for their King...He didn't show up...
You may feel the opportunity to reach Jesus on your own, but you shouldn’t discount Catholic priests that are following the path of Jesus and the apostles.
I feel the opportunity to believe what Jesus told us in the scriptures...Jesus rejected the priesthood...Jesus nor the apostles wasted their time with any priests...Jesus said:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Jesus nor the apostles ever told anyone to go to a priest...
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
We go right to Jesus...
He trained them to do the job. But so that they could equip EVERY believer to also go out and preach the gospel and lead others to Himself.
He did not set up a special class of people. The Holy Spirit empowers ALL people to do His work in the world.
ALL believers are given that responsibility and privilege.
Many seem to accept parts of the Bible that support their beliefs, but ignore other parts and then claim Catholic Church is not Biblical. You can thank the early priests for teaching God’s word and passing down the Scripture so that it could be written.
from Catholic Answers:
Even if we were to accept the notion of Christians being priests as you say, and accept your interpretation of I Tim. 2:5 and Heb. 7:22-25, this in no way shows that there is a distinct ordained priesthood. I Pet. 2 teaches all Christians are priests. And, in fact, the ordained ministers of the New Covenant are called apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), presbyters (cf. Js. 5:14), and bishops (cf. Acts 1:20, I Tim. 3:1). They are not called priests, which is hiereus in Greek.
Well, one thing is clear. We’ve made progress. We now know it is possible to have priests within the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. And this is not a contradiction when the priests are understood as participating in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. Now we must prove the existence of a specially called out and ordained priesthood—a ministerial priesthood—within the universal priesthood.
We can do so in three points:
1. I Peter 2:5-9, which speak of a universal priesthood, refers back to Ex. 19:6: “… and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” The Scripture here indicates a universal priesthood in the Old Covenant. And yet, in that same Ex. 19, and verse 22, we read, “And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves….” There was already a universal priesthood in existence in the Old Covenant, but this did not mean there could not be a distinct ministerial priesthood as well. So it is in the New Covenant.
2. As far as the term “priest” is concerned: it is not surprising that the Christians of the first century would not use the term “priest” (Gr. hiereus) in describing their ministers. This was the same term being used by the more numerous Jewish (cf. Lk. 1:8-9) and even pagan (cf. Acts 14:13) priests. Christians most likely used language to distinguish their priests from the Jewish and pagan priests of their day.
3. One of the largest obstacles for many to accepting a New Testament priesthood is the idea of needing any mediation whatsoever in the New Covenant. “Isn’t this the whole point of the New Covenant?” they will ask. “We don’t have to go to a mediator on earth anymore. We can go directly to God through Christ.”
In one sense, this is true. We can go directly to God through Jesus Christ in offering our prayers and sacrifices in union with Him. But this is not an either/or proposition. We do not either go to God or go to his representatives on this earth when we have needs. The Catholic Church, and the Bible I might add, says we do both. For example, Phil. 4:6-7 says:
Have no anxiety about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Here we see St. Paul encouraging all Christians to exercise their universal, “royal priesthood” before God. However, analogous to what we saw in the Old Testament, we also have a special group of men called by Christ to a specific priestly ministry within the body of Christ in the New Testament. In fact, each of the three ministers I mentioned above—apostles, presbyters (or “elders”), and bishops—is clearly presented as priestly in nature in the New Testament.
Apostles
In Scripture, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men (in Christ, of course). This, again, is the definition of a priest. For example, after the resurrection, our Lord appears to the apostles in the upper room and says to them:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn. 20:21-23).
Here, Jesus communicates the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is clearly a priestly ministry (see also Lev. 19:21-22). In II Cor. 2:10, St. Paul says to the Corinthians:
…if I have pardoned anything for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ (Douay Rheims).
St. Paul evidently heard confessions in Corinth carrying out this priestly commission of the apostle.
Jesus not only gives the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gives them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. “He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me” (Matt. 10:40). In II Cor. 2:17 we see St. Paul carrying out this priestly ministry. “For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak” (Douay Rheims).
Or, in II Cor. 5:18:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.
Bishops (Gr. episkopoi)
According to Scripture and Tradition, bishops are successors of the apostles. In Acts 1:20, for example, when the apostles were choosing a replacement for Judas, the text reads, “… And his bishopric (Gr. episkopee) let another man take.” Thus, the “bishopric,” by nature, carries on the apostolic ministry in their same priestly function.
Presbyters, or “Elders” (Gr. presbyteroi)
These too are most definitely seen as priests. James 5:14 puts it quite plainly:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (Gr. presbyteroi) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Notice, the Scripture does not say we should just go to anyone if we’re sick because we are all priests. It singles out the presbyters and once again they are seen acting as mediators in the forgiveness of sins and healing.
St. Paul tells us the presbyter has been given the ministry of reconciliation just as the apostles and bishops, in II Cor. 5:20:
So we are ambassadors (Gr. presbeuomen) for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
A Priestly Bias
I know from my own experience as a former Protestant that the word “priest” brought with it all sorts of anti-Catholic bias in my mind. What I came to discover, however, is New Testament ministers are, in fact, priests, even though the noun is not found referring to them. Whether you call these New Covenant ministers apostles, bishops, or presbyters, their function is clearly priestly. A great example of this can be found in how St. Paul refers to his own apostolic ministry as a “priestly service.”
… because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God… (Romans 15:15b-16a)
I think people can easily fall into the same trap of those who would reject the Trinity because the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. The reality of the Trinity is there. The Church uses this word to define the mystery of three divine persons existing in one essence. So it is with the priesthood. The noun, hiereus, is not there. But the fact that apostles, bishops, and elders function as priests is very clear.
Denying the Obvious
Attempts to deny the priestly character of the above-mentioned texts are always, shall we say, interesting. One example of this is found in the attempt to interpret away Jesus’ clear words imparting the power to forgive sins to the apostles in John 20:21-23. Many will claim, “The perfect tense, passive voice, of the verb ‘to forgive’ makes clear that when Jesus said, ‘If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven,’ it actually means whoever sins you forgive have already been forgiven. Not through any instrumentality of the apostle, but by God.”
While it is true perfect passive forms of the verbs both “to forgive” and “to retain” are employed in the text, this same text plainly tells us when the sins were “already forgiven.” When “you” (the apostles) forgive them!
The Catholic Church is not saying the apostles are doing this by some magical powers or by their own power. Jesus “breathed on them” and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins. But the fact is the apostles are the revealed instruments of God’s forgiveness. If this is not a priest, then what is a priest?
There are many more texts of Scripture we could use to demonstrate a New Covenant ministerial priesthood. But I suppose I could sum it up with the old saying, “If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it’s a duck.”
When we examine the New Testament and particularly the function of its ministers... if they talk like priests, forgive sins like priests, mediate grace like priests...
And if you liked this post and want to learn more, click here.
Tim Staples is Director of Apologetics and Evangelization here at Catholic Answers, but he was not always Catholic. Tim was raised a Southern Baptist. Although he fell away from the faith of his childhood, Tim came back to faith in Christ during his late teen years through the witness of Christian...
Christ gave all believers that command, not just the apostles.
there's no need for earthly priests. The priesthood was done away with because we have one great high priest who is all we need.
ALL believers are ambassadors for Christ.
Colossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
No. There is only ONE mediator between God and man.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Christ gave all believers that command, not just the apostles.
Yes. that is true.
Jesus gave it specially to the Apostles and their successors who followed the path of Christ.
Feel free to read and understand the rest of the scriptures.
The Catholic church agrees, but then accept the rest of the story.
And the priests acting through Christ perform the Sacraments and bring others to Jesus.
The Catholic Church is not saying the apostles are doing this by some magical powers or by their own power. Jesus “breathed on them” and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins. But the fact is the apostles are the revealed instruments of God’s forgiveness. If this is not a priest, then what is a priest?
Satan LIVES at Planned Parenthood, so, of course, people in the immediate vicinity [like the man you mentioned] can be affected by the devil, and that’s why we have moved our fight for the unborn [for the most part] to the adoration chapel, where we only meet up with angels, Mary, and Christ Jesus Himself.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3318072/posts?page=24#24
Mary, sweet Mary, please help anxious and frightened women, unwantingly pregnant, to decide for Life... And help the men everywhere in this nation “gain chests” so they can nip evil in the bud, and free up the souls of our mothers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3317711/posts
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